#448 | B.C. Sanders| Courage in Transition: From Crime Fighter to Creative

Ever wonder what it takes to leave a demanding career after 21 years of service? Join me as I converse with BC Sanders, a seasoned law enforcement officer, and share his compelling journey from the front lines to the quieter path of writing and podcasting. We traverse the intimate aspects of his career, from working on organized crime to the emotional burden of the homicide unit, and the sacrifices he had to make during this considerable transition. 

BC opens up about the significant role mental health plays in law enforcement. We delve into the stigma around therapy within the force and highlight how crucial it is for officers to utilize the resources available to them. 

As we shift focus to BC's life post-retirement, we discuss his current role in consulting and training, and his co-hosting gig. The importance of finding outlets beyond one's career and the value of scenario-driven training are key topics in our conversation. BC offers invaluable insights into leadership, the importance of positioning officers where their expertise can be best utilized, and shares advice to those aspiring to be in a leadership role. Don't miss our engaging dialogue on the human aspect behind the badge.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:15

Hey, welcome to the Protectors. This is the big reveal. We are here talking to BC Sanders. Now, we talked about a little bit. What we're going to reveal tonight is something, but it's not everything, because you got to keep a little mystery. You know what I mean there, bc.

Speaker 2: 0:30

Yeah, yeah, just a little bit.

Speaker 1: 0:32

Yeah, I'm trying to figure out how many times we've been on a show together.

Speaker 2: 0:35

A few, a few, yeah, I would say four, fiveish maybe.

Speaker 1: 0:42

Or five, some of the live stuff all over the place. But we talk all the time, we text all the time and you know, bc, you're going through something that I just went through in March. It's 20-something years in law enforcement and then you're pulling a plug, man, and I hate that word, I hate that word. That sounds terrible. You're trying, you know, let's say you're going to pivot my favorite word, pivot into a new phase of your life or a new chapter of your life.

Speaker 2: 1:11

You know what I'm doing. I'm giving up a seat for somebody else to take my spot and have as much fun as I had. That's the way I look at it.

Speaker 1: 1:19

You know, that's a damn good way to look at it. I don't know if anybody's going to. You know, with my seat it was kind of like you know, yeah, you don't want that seat, man, but anyway for BC man, like when you first decided to take that step and to leave law enforcement after how many years now, like 20 plus right.

Speaker 2: 1:35

Yeah, this will basically be a 21 year, so I'm doing just an early retirement 21 years when you first decided to take it.

Speaker 1: 1:43

you must have had like a hell of a lot of it. Like you know, you still have bills to pay. You still have a lot of life left, oh yeah. But, yeah, what was that feeling? Like man Tell me.

Speaker 2: 1:54

Uh, it was like a gradual progression. The more I was writing and the more that was kind of taken off and avenues were opening up for me, the more I started seeing okay, at some point I'm going to, I'm going to have to either decide to go full bore and keep writing and push what I want to do next or keep doing what I'm doing in the police world. But you know here, uh, we do 30 year retirements or 25 year retirements, or you can buy back some military time and and get time. You know credit for that, uh. So I just weighed out my options. But the more I was writing and the more I wanted to get into that, the more I wanted to work on podcasting, merchandise, doing some events.

Speaker 2: 2:40

Uh, I just thought now's the time where I can retire and actually get involved in doing what I want to do. So it's not like I, it's not like I hated law enforcement. I'm not, um, frustrated with my department, especially not like my chief. I'm kind of sad in that fact that I'm retiring when we have a chief that is the old school crime fighter, um, but also forward thinking. So I am going to miss that I, they're, they're getting ready to take off and in my department and get back to the way it was several years ago when we had a lot of really good units doing a lot of really good work.

Speaker 1: 3:19

Well, you were in a leadership position too, which is it's a lot different now. You know, may I miss the field? I miss, I miss the old old days. For me, like the end of my career, just yeah, it wasn't that fun. But knowing that you're going to turn to badge and gun it, I'm going to, I'm going to. Well, the first thing is I'm going to try to make you cry during this interview. Now, oh, that's, that's easy. You know what?

Speaker 2: 3:42

What you gotta do is mention, like the movie Simon Birch, or you know the uh, uh. Stand by me when when uh and uh, what's his name? Or sitting there on the road, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah I moi되uis ça.

Speaker 1: 3:56

Yeah, so I was. But do you have that kind of like am I doing the right thing?

Speaker 2: 4:35

Mm. Hmm, yeah, the idea, uh, and we always say that like once you realize kind of you're done, you know, like your heart's not in it. It's not because it's kind of cliche, but cop work is different than just a regular job. I mean, it's something that you kind of have to sacrifice. Going through that Academy, uh, you know, focusing on what you want to do and what, what assignments you want to take and what you're willing to sacrifice.

Speaker 2: 5:04

You know some assignments are very cushy and you can sit at a desk and not do anything, or you're out there like you were on the border doing things on your own, you know, solo out in the desert or whatever.

Speaker 2: 5:16

Or as a patrol officer, you're in a patrol car, you're responding to chaos, and for me and for a lot of other people that's what we wanted to do, no matter what. I mean I sacrificed a lot to do what I wanted to do and I was very fortunate that a lot of assignments were open for me, because I kind of built a background early on in patrol with gangs and trying to be like an expert in just criminal culture, and some of that I knew before I joined the police department, just kind of growing up in the punk rock scene and stuff. But once I got on I just kept learning and wanted to really just focus on any kind of organized crime or organized threat, and so that if your heart's not in it and then, like you were saying, you go and you apply or you look at it and go, ah, you know, I still got it Physically, you got it Mentally. You would smoke everybody in the academy. But if your heart's not there after a while you just kind of lose interest.

Speaker 1: 6:15

You know what I mean, yeah, it's like going back to be that young guy again, a 50-years-old, to be the new guy.

Speaker 2: 6:21

If you can give me a.

Speaker 1: 6:22

if I could find a reserve slot somewhere that was, like you know, a fully sworn type reserve gig where I could actually do like investigations or do something. I'm like I jump on a heartbeat I'd give my time for free.

Speaker 2: 6:34

Now some departments are going to like a like you retire and then they'll hire retirees back If they've got certain backgrounds or they're willing to do certain jobs, and I think it's like 20 hours a week. But some departments look at like a cold case investigators so they may bring somebody back with a homicide background and they wouldn't go out and do actual interviews and work crime scenes, but they would go through cold cases, assess them and then basically make a to-do list. And so there have been some agencies that I've met with and they've talked about that, not for me, but I mean like for me when I retire I'm not doing that but for their units, and I thought that was pretty cool that someone could retire and still use that expertise and not tie up. You know a full-time investigator.

Speaker 1: 7:22

But now you have a lot of creative outlet available. You know you started the podcast a while ago. You've been interviewed a million times, you've been speaking out about your knowledge, your expertise and everything, and now you're getting into writing. You've been into writing so you've been building up these outlets. And that's one thing I tell people, mike, when you're thinking about changing career paths even if, let's say, you've only been on job five years but you just know it's not right for you, or you know you did your time and you want to move on to something else You're building these creative outlets while you're still in the job. You're not just staying stagnant.

Speaker 2: 7:59

Yeah, I think it's like anything just having an exit strategy Whether it's getting a gang member out of a gang or a partner out of an abusive relationship. You know there are just certain things you got to do to plan for that transition, because if you don't, then you're kind of sitting there one day, either retired or resigned and you don't have anything lined up. And there are guys out there I say guys, there are people out there who will wait and then they'll retire and they have no plan and they're scrambling around at the last minute, you know, trying to get a gig or whatever. If for some departments you can retire at 100%, so your salary is your salary for the rest of your life. So it always kind of amazes me Some people will retire and they get very frustrated because they don't have anything lined up.

Speaker 2: 8:51

And I kind of look at it and go well, 25 or 30 years, you know to line stuff up and maybe not beat yourself up about it, retire and work in the ease into something. But like you've had stuff you've been working on, you've had, you know, outlets that are positive and that are rewarding for you and your personality. I look at the same way with newer officers and tell them all the time, like, find a, find a hobby, find something to get involved in outside of this whole police sphere, you know. So if, whether it's, you know, reading, for me it was reading and writing and and doing graphic designs or having ideas for certain merchandise and stuff like that, or pitching ideas to to bands and um, you know, uh, sharing artwork and stuff. You got to have something like that. But to transition out after five years or seven years, uh, in police work you have amazing skills that you can capitalize on.

Speaker 2: 9:49

But what do we do in our culture? We don't like to see people resign early or leave. It's sad. It's almost like, um, people make fun of officers sometimes when they do resign, but then you see that officer a year later and they have a great job and they're happy and and it's like it's, you know, like, like sometimes just got to support people and go look if you want to resign and go do something else. Like for me, like you got my blessing, like I keep in touch with me. I don't, I don't want you to go out there and be frustrated or mad. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 10:21

I look at it. I look at police work and emergency responders, first responders and stuff. It's kind of like a uh, it's almost like a military tour, you know. It's almost like an enlistment You're serving you may not be serving foreign um, and we both know, like a lot of people that go to war don't really do a ton and but there's a lot of cops that have seen some stuff. Man, you know, four or five, two years, one year on a job, six months on a job, you know, give them the same credibility and give them the same kudos is like hey, you know what you did four or five years. Go and do something that you want to do. It doesn't necessarily have to be like you've got to stay in this job 20 years or we're going to hate you.

Speaker 2: 11:01

That's, but that is the culture Sometimes.

Speaker 1: 11:03

I know man it is.

Speaker 2: 11:05

I had a rookie uh, I used to be a training officer, um on patrol for a couple of years and I had a rookie that was in the Marine Corps, served overseas, and when he came to our district, our district was was wide open. At that time we had, uh, one of the highest homicide rates in our city's history and probably about 90% of those homicides were occurring right there in our area or our location. So he and I were going to a lot of murders and and shootings. And he was only with me for nine weeks I think it was eight weeks or something and towards the end he said I've seen more dead bodies here than I saw over in Iraq or Afghanistan I forget which one he was in, but but I was like okay, and and a little you know, psychologist in me was like, are you good with that? Like like, talk to me, you know what's, how's it making you feel? For him it was a lot of it was, I say, depressive, obviously, but I don't think he was ready for that. I think that he thought because of the news and the city that we were in it's a big city but it's not, you know, new York, chicago or LA and it took him a little bit to adapt to it. You know, and also, aside from the murders, you're also going to suicides, overdoses, uh, deaths, you know such child deaths, elderly people passing away, people passing away and looking like you know they're discarded trash because they, you know, they're sleeping in a cup between some houses or something. So it was kind of an opener for him and I always tried to remember that too with you know, newer officers to be very understanding that they're going to see stuff that you know TV and television kind of sensationalizes it, um, but at some point your brain has to process it and it may not be that year, it may be five years down the road.

Speaker 2: 12:59

For me it started about 15 years ago because I've worked on a homicide unit, uh, as a detective, a sergeant and as a lieutenant and it it started on like I said. It just started kind of setting in and I and I started trying to limit what I was being exposed to If I was not directly involved in something. I didn't want to see the crime scene photos. I had learned enough at that time, I didn't need to keep seeing it, um, and I didn't want to keep taking on the um, I guess the sorrow or the the sad feelings coming from the families and that sort of thing. So I'll say this there if you know people are listening, they're in that field.

Speaker 2: 13:37

If it's homicide, you know, aggravated assault, sexual assaults, like at some point you have to switch it up and try to do something different. Um, if that begins to affect you now, if it doesn't affect you, then that's cool, drive on. And if your department has a psychologist which I hope a lot of departments do, or at least will pay for officers or agents to go see a psychologist you go in there, you talk it out and it's not like sitting on a couch, you take a walk around the block or a building or something. You can meet, like our psychologist department. You meet anywhere.

Speaker 2: 14:11

I can call this person up, text this person or just get on the phone and say, hey, we got 10 minutes, I just want to talk about what I just saw and get it out and um, it's amazing to be able to do that. So some departments are a little more progressive than others and they are switching it up. So I'm excited to at least see that and exercise and yoga and clean eating and telling officers you know it's okay if you don't drink, and if you drink now you can cut back some. You know you don't get. Getting drunk every night is probably not going to help with what you're seeing. You know it's going to make things worse.

Speaker 1: 14:46

You know, unfortunately your department is an exception to the norm and that's a lot of. That's a big discussion we need to start having everywhere and everyone. You know the military is finally embracing it Now. You're finally seeing people at general level saying, hey, you know what? I have a problem, I have issues.

Speaker 1: 15:01

I want to get help. But the way what you just described is something I think would be perfect. Like you said, you can reach out to your texts, you can take walks, you can do other things. It shouldn't just be like oh man, come on, bro, we all see that. You know, come on. You know the gallows humor and then deflect and then, especially if you're in a management position, you know.

Speaker 2: 15:21

Yeah, it's it's. It's weird because when I got on the department the older officers or the seasoned officers we had a different psychologist, but we still had a department psychologist, but they just didn't seem to embrace it, you know, and it could have been the person I don't know. I never went to that person at the time. So we had a different psychologist come on board and that person was like top notch. So probably within the last 10 years, those of us that have kind of come up through the ranks and work different assignments we try to influence the others. Make sure you're utilizing the department psychologist and should get over that stigma that just because you go talk to a therapist doesn't mean there's anything wrong with you. As a matter of fact, it's kind of filled. You know 10 times better. The same way a coach can show you how to how to dunk or shoot a layup or something you know what I mean or throw a football. It's like you're kind of dealing with the same thing.

Speaker 1: 16:21

And you're not broken man. You're not.

Speaker 2: 16:25

You know this, this idea also that everyone has to talk about their feelings or what they're going through. Not everybody has to. You know, different people are wired different and I know I'm taking this off on a tangent, but I don't necessarily have to talk about everything I see or what I'm processing. I can sometimes just process it mentally and move on. If I want to talk about it, I can talk about it. But I also know there are people that are hardwired a little bit differently and they don't necessarily want to talk about it, and and that's cool too. I mean, my main thing is just so that people have some kind of outlet and that officers and agents and deputies just support one another and realize, like some days are just not going to be as as great as the other days, and psychologically some people can't take that. The same way they can't take a person jumping out of a car during a traffic stop and threatening to kill them. You know, for some people they may go into vapor lock or that, or they may just like freeze up or do whatever.

Speaker 2: 17:28

Most of the training nowadays is, you know, simulation driven, scenario driven. You kind of find out early on in an academy. Okay, at least on a scenario you can function. You know, in real life maybe. But the more you do the scenarios, maybe we can condition you to react a little more. You know reliable sense and not not spazzing out the way we've seen some people do and they and they resign and that's okay. You know they maybe, maybe they just that's not their thing. They don't want to put their life on the line. I fully understand that.

Speaker 1: 18:00

You know, when you bring up the outlets too. It was like you and I both started having an out little while ago with the podcasting and everything. Now, not everybody has to get podcasting or writing or whatever, but find something outside of the job Because that's going to help you build to leave. You're going to leave eventually, you're not going to stay on a job eventually and you're going to want to have something to back up. Let's take away all the monetary stuff. You still need to have some sort of outlet, some sort of mission.

Speaker 2: 18:28

And that's um. I think that more that's kind of more or more accepted now with newer officers coming in because they're starting to hear that a lot more. Uh, but like when I first got on it, it doesn't seem like it was really that long ago until I stopped and think about it and I'm like man, that's like the equivalent of me in high school and like whatever, like like 1960, something you know, and then I stopped and go.

Speaker 2: 18:53

Oh, a lot of time difference between you know, mid sixties to the nineties or whatever Like it's and maybe let's not talk about time.

Speaker 1: 19:03

I am, you know, I still think 20 years ago. Every time I see that meme, I still think it's true. I still think 20 years ago is like net eighties. Yeah, oh, I do.

Speaker 2: 19:11

I do it all the time like that I completely forget about, like the 2000s and in 2010s and stuff. I'm just I don't know my brain's like stopped in the nineties until you know, maybe the last five years.

Speaker 1: 19:24

I know it was like you know. I turn on the the camera tonight I'm like holy crap, that's a lot of gray hair. Oh, you're good though man, yeah, we're going.

Speaker 2: 19:33

Yeah, I think that's the thing now, right, it's gray hair Like uh, sure man, I'll go with it. People like gray.

Speaker 1: 19:39

So you, uh, you're excited about this next chapter, which is good, and I'm glad you're coming out to talk about it. Now you're, what do you think about? Like you know, you and I were talking about, like you know, let's not just do the writing and podcast and stuff like that. Let's get together with people and just start building community.

Speaker 2: 19:54

Yeah, I mean the, the writing thing is great. Uh, consulting work so starting to get into some consulting stuff. So my co-host on the podcast of disruptors is is ski, and he and I've worked some assignments together FBI task force, gang stuff. We've taught, you know, we have taught classes together. We're moving into a different phase where we're going to collaborate and do some more training here in the future.

Speaker 2: 20:21

Um, but doing consulting work like that, which actually kind of came out of left field for us. We went on um field craft survival their podcast with Kevin Estella and had a great time and and a listener reached out to us and said hey, I, I like what you're talking about. I'd love for you to talk to my family. I've got some some um kids that are going off to college in different states. Can we just have like a zoom meeting or something? Uh, so we were able to do that and and had a blast doing it. I had a lot of really good feedback and we just do it more like a discussion it's not like a straightforward PowerPoint and you know, you're throwing a knife hand and telling people how they got to do this and that it's.

Speaker 2: 21:04

It's very laid back. It's just an open end of discussion and we covered everything from basically kind of hardening your vehicle for break ins and in apartment complexes or college campuses to um reading a little bit of behavioral um cues if someone's a threat or even if someone is trying to kind of pull one over on you or even just get information from you. So it just it was a great discussion. So we do things like that and then then we feel better because we're sharing our information in a similar fashion, the way we would uh on the street or maybe in a presentation to some citizens or stuff. So doing that and then trying to work some of these events. We've got some stuff coming up with field craft in December, um, so field craft has an office uh in North Carolina, so they're planning a Christmas party and still kind of kind of in the, in the weeds of how we're going to do it, but we're looking at um maybe doing something like a die hard uh movie dress up kind of thing.

Speaker 2: 22:07

Yeah, Just kind of theme it, but want to bring people into their facility and talk, share information, just have a, have a good time, Um, and eventually, you know, do some more events, ski, and I'll probably start maybe booking some bands and trying to do some shows down the line, you know, a year or two from now. But I just I'm a social person, I love talking to people and I think the more we can kind of do that and kind of reconnect, uh and and not live in our bubble the way we kind of had to, you know, for the last maybe year or two, um, with restrictions and things like that, it's kind of like we got to get back in society to sitting on a tailgate and telling stories or something you know the knowledge transfer, man, the knowledge transfer.

Speaker 2: 22:51

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 22:51

That's. That's one thing I liked about talking about Mike Lover too, was he, you know, talking about that community. It's not always about prepping and this and that's just about talking. Yeah, just having conversations. Yeah, it's funny.

Speaker 2: 23:04

You had him on your show, uh, a couple of weeks ago, maybe about a month back, or maybe it's um, yeah, um, but, but yeah, great episode.

Speaker 2: 23:14

Um, the information there. I think people kind of get things twisted and they just start looking at it and if you say anything about being prepared or learning about you know uh, environment that could be either be hostile or criminal or whatever it like. People sort of get the stigma that you're now going to talk down to them or you're you know what I mean. It gets a little weird. So I always try to tell people I have a good time, I laugh and joke, you know, and I can teach you things that can save your life, but we can still enjoy that there's a discussion and not and not have a big ego or anything like yeah.

Speaker 2: 23:55

I like those guys because they do that. They share this information, and it could be everything from natural disasters to Firearms training and stuff.

Speaker 1: 24:06

so not every day has to be like a doomsday. You know it's like you can have fun and you know me, like the shooting sports man, it just get people into learning something new. Yeah, and the field craft stuff is so awesome and you know, both know like you know getting out there in the woods and you know I miss tracking, I missed, I missed cuz I grew up in Jersey. But the nice part, the appellation part.

Speaker 2: 24:29

You know, for something.

Speaker 1: 24:31

Oh my gosh, not like the turnpike, the garden, garden state parkway. You know the garden state parkway is good for some things, man, but not, not, not like you know it's, it's kind of a hole. You know, you say we're from Newark and all that, but I lived up at a Delaware water gap where it was just a beautiful man appellations Get up hiking, you get out there in the woods and you just kind of learn more about yourself. Like you know, I want more people to do that stuff, and especially with their you know their kids, man, get your kids out there and take a walk with them.

Speaker 2: 25:03

Yeah, they were just teaching a class last weekend on land navigation and a lot of people would be like, well, I don't need to read a map. Well, okay, maybe you don't, but people were having a good time learning. Hey, you do yeah and it's kind of like a feeling of accomplishment, the same that maybe someone felt in school getting an A or, you know, winning some event, and sports are doing whatever it's like.

Speaker 2: 25:31

You know you could be, whatever age, take the course and learn a really cool skill and then go out there and apply it and, just like you said, like Nothing feels better than than traversing a land navigation course and you actually succeed. Now what's worse is when you get lost, and I've been lost before. And the army, and it's a.

Speaker 1: 25:50

Hey, come on, I was a butter bar. I was an infantry butter bar. I believe me, I know what it's like to get lost. Yeah, but no, that's not that sense of accomplishment. When you get from point eight, when you get the point and then you get the next point, you're like I made it.

Speaker 2: 26:04

Yeah, this is real, you can really do this yeah, and it's funny to the more we interact our brains, like we're really getting, like we're checking out from using our brains for anything like I'm kind of silly, but really we have these devices that the GPS, that maps everything, tells you to turn left, turn right, like you don't even have to write down the directions, like when you know.

Speaker 1: 26:29

We were kids, we had to do the map quest or no. Like back when I used to work drugs, it was a Thomas guide man.

Speaker 2: 26:35

Yeah, thomas guide, you be like there was a GPS you know and you're yeah, yeah, I was a, I was a brand new officer and I was taking the city or the district map and I was taking a piece of paper over and I was tracing the main avenues of approach, like our main route and where the hospital was. And you know, because you gotta know how to get the hospital, and some of the other officers we're like you know what are you doing? Rookie, you know, and I'm like I'm learning this, this route, you know, and they didn't understand what I was doing. But in my brain, yeah, I was a rookie but I was drawing the map because I had to picture to my brain, I knew when I got in the car, when the stress hits, I have to see that aerial view, like reading a map and army. I mean it worked a lot easier.

Speaker 2: 27:19

But yeah, I just tell people like, get out and unplug, and I've spent most of the summer at the beach as much as I possibly can, enjoying life. You know, sitting with my lady. Just, you know, sometimes we're sitting there listening to music, sometimes we're just talking. We were out there the other night until probably midnight looking at the constellations and it was a meteor shower. I forget what it's called, but every year in like mid August.

Speaker 1: 27:48

There's a witness man. It's called the UAP. We had that shit. Weren't, they wouldn't do that show together. The UAP show. I didn't remember, man, it was like a live show, like that UAPs oh, but legit. We just, we saw like stars that not sure they were shooting was open, man.

Speaker 2: 28:07

The waves were rolling in the background, but People got to do it, man. They I mean get unplugged, get get focused.

Speaker 1: 28:16

Okay, what's okay? We talked, we talked, we talked. I saw offspring over the weekend excellent show. What's your next show, man? What's? What's the next concert coming up?

Speaker 2: 28:28

Chrome eggs man. Yeah, they are touring and they're hitting some, some shows in the south. So yeah, I'm going to a chrome ag show.

Speaker 1: 28:40

I might have to hit you up on that. One man, we'll talk about that.

Speaker 2: 28:43

I might have to do that yeah, dri is coming through as well. I don't know if you remember dirty rotten imbeciles, but they were like Kind of punk and then they throw and they crossed over like thrash. But man, they're touring and everyone is like these bands still. They still got it like they bring that kind of energy.

Speaker 2: 29:01

So those are the two shows coming up. I missed gorilla biscuits and H2O. They were touring together and I just there was no. There were no shows in the south, and I even reached out to the guitarist for H2O and he's like, yeah, we just we don't have anything on the books. I think maybe they're gonna do a Florida festival, but yeah. So I've missed a few shows, unfortunately.

Speaker 1: 29:25

Yeah yeah, I gotta get out there, man. I you know I have cheap will travel man. I got my 2016 Jeep. I'll drive all over the place, man that's how I have to do it.

Speaker 2: 29:34

I can't, you know, most, most shows that are in the south Are going to be like in one state maybe, and there's like one venue that'll play some shows. So you hit that one quite a bit. But I call some sublime A couple weeks, a couple weeks back, man, that was an incredible show. There were a couple other bands that played like slightly stupid I think we're the headliners, but I think a lot of people were there to see some of them. It was, it was a good show.

Speaker 1: 30:00

I've been trying to hit link up with John to go see Motley crew and stuff and death leopard.

Speaker 2: 30:06

Oh, you tell me, silver Spare.

Speaker 1: 30:07

John, yeah, silver Spare.

Speaker 2: 30:09

John.

Speaker 1: 30:10

I gotta, I'd love to see those guys Awesome but I'm like I missed him. I'd have to travel to Japan to see him. Like I don't know if I'm up for like a day, like just a day, in a plane to see Molly crew and yeah, he stays on the go, but he's back down man.

Speaker 2: 30:26

Is he back to doing his shows, right, I think? Yeah that's the shows coming out, good yeah, I hope so, man.

Speaker 1: 30:30

Yeah, brother, I appreciate you, man yeah looking forward to more collaboration.

Speaker 2: 30:36

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you've got to look at the schedule. We're back to recording, so we got to put Gotta, put a day in time. I want to get you on our show. I'd be able to talk and cut up and and quiz you on some stuff, man.

Speaker 1: 30:50

So, before we go, what about what some advice you'd like to give to leadership? Oh you know, you know, let's listen. We all know, like you know, a young person getting on a job, or younger person. Mm-hmm you know. You know they're gonna learn what they're gonna learn. But if you could, if you were and I hate that came for a day thing, but what advice would you give leadership?

Speaker 2: 31:11

Yeah, it's pretty simple. I say it a lot, I joke a lot, but I can still walk into a room and brief FBI supervisor, you know, chief of police, sheriff. But I but I like to joke and I would say for leadership One, be approachable. It's okay to joke if you have a sense of humor if you don't try to develop a little bit of one, to be more just, more charismatic, mainly so that Officers can relate. So the the main thing is talk to your people, know who they are, know who your talent is in your upper echelon. So if you're chief and you're promoting people to these higher ranks, these district commanders or division commanders, know those people and know their weaknesses.

Speaker 2: 31:59

Because I have seen the trend and and it's you know, multiple departments are doing it.

Speaker 2: 32:06

But people are getting promoted oftentimes and they get kind of they Outpunt their coverage, so to speak, like they just are not, they don't have that level of experience to be at that, that position.

Speaker 2: 32:20

So that's what I would say leadership is got to be more approachable and be able to say you are a Captain, you are a lieutenant, a sergeant, handle your section, you know and Problem-solve and and don't be afraid to make a decision and go for it.

Speaker 2: 32:41

You know You're being promoted because the department believes that you know what you're doing. Then go do that, because an officer gets on scene, they start making decisions and they're telling people where to go and they're pulling people out at gunpoint and they're putting handcuffs on. And they're very good, they're very decisive, but sometimes up the chain, people get promoted, promoted, promoted and and they don't have that strong background. So I would say that, like, like, keep your people Motivated and put leadership where their expertise is. Don't don't give your buddy a A pass and hook them up with that easy job or whatever assignment. Put people where they have their expertise and where they're gonna moat may make the most Effective decisions and then implement them. It's not it's really not that hard, but you got to have a spine and you got to have confidence in what you're doing and I have seen people Not have that confidence and that's a sad that be able to make a decision.

Speaker 1: 33:44

Yeah, it's not that hard.