The Protectors® Podcast
#454 | Brian Marren & Greg Williams | Understanding Human Behavior: Discussions with 'Left of Greg' Hosts and the Importance of Behavior Pattern Recognition
Ever wondered how understanding human behavior can make you smarter, faster, and harder to kill? Buckle up as we navigate through this thrilling conversation with Brian Marren and Greg Williams, the brains behind the 'Left of Greg' podcast. \
Our chat extends beyond the military and law enforcement, touching on concepts that are applicable to everyday life. How can you use frequencies and de-escalation to better understand your behavior and those around you? How can the notion of 'duty to intervene' apply to you? We also discuss their business, Arcadia Cognerati, aimed at facilitating learning about human behavior, pattern recognition, and analysis. Don't miss out on this captivating exploration of the human mind and behavior.
Make sure to check out Jason on IG @drjasonpiccolo
Ever wondered how understanding human behavior can make you smarter, faster, and harder to kill? Buckle up as we navigate through this thrilling conversation with Brian Marren and Greg Williams, the brains behind the 'Left of Greg' podcast. \
Our chat extends beyond the military and law enforcement, touching on concepts that are applicable to everyday life. How can you use frequencies and de-escalation to better understand your behavior and those around you? How can the notion of 'duty to intervene' apply to you? We also discuss their business, Arcadia Cognerati, aimed at facilitating learning about human behavior, pattern recognition, and analysis. Don't miss out on this captivating exploration of the human mind and behavior.
Make sure to check out Jason on IG @drjasonpiccolo
Hey, welcome to the protectors podcast. I think we are an episode 450 something. It's a lot of episodes. I'm excited to have these guys on. I was on their podcast to left Greg not that long ago at great conversations. Greg Williams, brian Marin welcome to the show.
Speaker 2:Thanks for having us on, man. It was great talking to you. We got some great feedback from when you were on our episode and people liked it. They kind of got where we were going with and they appreciated your insight. Oh, actually that reminds me and we'll talk offline, but I do have someone that might want to reach out to you, Some questions about something, so we can get into that later.
Speaker 3:But I just it's not an attorney.
Speaker 1:No, it's not, hey, that's good, I'm like hey, I didn't do it.
Speaker 3:You're being served, Jason. That's what it is. Just meet me at the hallway.
Speaker 1:Listen, I'm in an undisclosed location somewhere in the United States, in a bunker, so they can't find it. There's no way. But that is one thing about your podcast it's very in-depth, very thorough. You guys do your research before you have a guest on. You have a lot of relevant discussions about what's going on today. Where did the concept for a podcast come for you both? How did you link up to do a podcast? Obviously, you have the business item together, but that's such a great question.
Speaker 3:First of all, kudos to you, because we absolutely love your podcast and I suggest it everywhere I go. That's not just a chat. One of the episodes you did was with Dale Dye. We're fanboys of Dale Todd Fox, we're fanboys Peter Forsselley, the ATF guy. You do a lot of great stuff. The protectors episodes were just honored to be on there.
Speaker 3:Specifically to answer the first part of that question, marin and I travel all the time, in addition to being a business partner and senior VP of operations and a great friend and a lover and all the other things that Brian has become over the years. That's a joke, but it's a good one for those that know us. What happens is that Brian and I are trapped in a rental car hotel in a hallway before we go on in the green room and we have these discussions. Sometimes when we joked all the time that listen, we should capture some of this. This is wonderful stuff, because I'm completely deaf and Brian's only partially deaf. Brian's always driving the rental slide.
Speaker 3:We would have the discussions and it would go these tangential places, because I thought he was saying one thing and he was saying something totally different. It's like well, brian said one day. You have no idea what it's like being left to Greg. That's also a play on the left of Bangbook the best after-action review that's ever been written about the work that I did. Brian came up with it. I'll pass the baton because Brian actually came up with the title, the concept, and he's the one that chooses all the guests. Am I pretty close on that, brian?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean that was basically the concept. It's kind of like our conversations we have in the car and then it started with, obviously, the take I'm driving, so I'm sitting in the left side of Greg and his left is hearing out of his left side is worse than his right. It's like these conversations will go for five minutes and I'll look at him and go wait what? And he'll look at me like what the hell are you talking about? It's that we had a perfect one when we were actually in Ireland with one of our clients over there and we're in Dublin and we're driving to. It was an amazing trip. We take an Uber in in the morning to their location it's right along the River Liffey, downtown Dublin.
Speaker 2:It's beautiful and then we kind of sort of stumble our way back at the end of the day We'd pump crawl our way back to the hotel but on the way in this guy's explaining everything, going over here. He said, hey, this is the museum, and over here it was going to be obviously a Brogue, a thick Irish accent. And so he's talking and the guy's like, yeah, and you know, this is the boat over here, and you know he was talking about people going to immigrating to the United States. And they see this, look on Greg's face, he's kind of shaking his head. He's doing this. Look around him like all right, he's on to something. And so we get out.
Speaker 2:I was like, hey, what's up, man, Everything good. He's like, hey, that guy's completely full of it. I was like, what are you talking about? And he goes that boat that he was talking about. There's no way that you can go catch salmon off that boat. That's not a fishing boat. And I said, Greg, that was a boat from the great potato famine in Ireland they call them the famine boats where everyone immigrated over. There was no fishing going on there.
Speaker 3:And he was like, oh my God, I feel he's ready to let go, and that's the least stupid thing that I've ever said, and I'm ready to bump chess with this guy and go toe to toe over ridiculous hearing loss.
Speaker 2:So those occur very often with Brian and yeah, but that's where it came from. And then, of course, to take on on left of bang, which is, you know, greg wrote the combat hunter program for the Marine Corps and then a couple Marines liked it so much they wrote a book about it called left of bang. I mean, no, no, no content in there is theirs, but you know, there it is. So I figured, hey, let's, let's, kind of let's, let's take it off there and people, it'll be sort of an inside joke for some people and so everyone kind of appreciates and laughs at it.
Speaker 2:But that's where. That's where the concept came up from.
Speaker 1:Well, the great thing about the show too, it's a knowledge transfer, and that's my kind. My belief is that podcasts should be some sort of knowledge transfer. A lot of times you see people that they pop open a podcast, they start it, they do about two or three episodes and really just them and their buddies inside jokes the whole time. A lot of the podcasts that stay and have standing power are a knowledge transfer. People want to learn something, want to get something out of it, and that's something we're going to talk about today with with your guys. Your main focus, which is our KD called Nourati, is the knowledge transfer. So, everybody, make sure you check out the left of Greg. Tons of great information.
Speaker 1:But the real conversation I want to have is right now, and that is about training, training, training, training. You know, you know me, I've come from the military and federal government background. So many different training concepts out there and so many people not going to say fleecing the system. But just because you have a certain background doesn't make you a specific trainer. You could be an ex former blah, blah, blah with any three letter agency or with with any tier one, tier two or tier seven group, but that doesn't necessarily mean it equates to, for one, that you can train someone, or to that you have the ability to train, because it's a lot different having the experience and then being able to do that knowledge transfer. But the other thing is your audience, and you guys have a very not really specific office audience, but you do deal with different markets. So let's get into this. And what? First of all, what is our Katie Gongerati?
Speaker 3:Yeah. So great question, and I'm the king of non sequitur answers, so I'll answer just whatever way to popped up in my head and I'll tell you hit on something, jason that I want to make sure that your listeners caught. One, not everything that you learn is transferable and two, the way that the information is sticky is essential if you're trying to train somebody. I'll give you a very brief personal example before I pass the Brian for the Arcadia definition. So my wife's Shelley, our CEO, the best human behavior profile I've ever met, former copper, just great, strained, all the tier one people. Her parents are in town, unexpectedly drop in for a couple of weeks but they left. So I got nothing to complain about and they're wonderful, but they're late 80s and they're setting their ways and things are very specific.
Speaker 3:So when the dad loves cooking and right in the middle of shaving in the morning before coming down and handling further edge weapons, he cuts himself quite significantly and because he's on every blood thinner known to humankind, he's like a Vesuvius, you know. It's like a sprinkler shooting all over the room. So the very first thing that Shelley and I do, shelley applies the pressure and I grabbed some kerlicks that's still in my vest still out of my kit from from Afghanistan. It works perfectly. We take them over to the emergency room and he gets treated and the nurse there was like hey, that was pretty quick thinking and it's like, no, all good things like that come from combat.
Speaker 3:So the operating under stress, not being freaked out by the blood, using quick plot, the actual quick plot, all of those are great things that are immediately transferable. You know what's not that transferable? And MRAP using in Kansas to drive down the street to execute a SWAT team raid, you know, on a less than significant target, and somebody's going to say, well, how do you know, it's all a? Hey, I know what that looks like. And that bank vault with a bunch of guys with black guns isn't the type of image that every city can support, right? So I just want to say that that what we try to do is do knowledge transfer on stuff that matters the sky is blue, water is wet, you know physics, gravity, those type of things that you can use in everyday parlance, that's street it up so you don't have to study all the collegiate level stuff and that you can immediately apply to make yourself smarter, faster and harder to kill. So that's my preamble, and then we turned it into a company that's called Arcadia right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so the name Arcadia Cognomotives, kind of it's very telling about how we are. So Arcadia comes from, you know, arcadia back in ancient Greece, a place where a lot of really smart people hung out and thoughts and really deep thoughts and kind of the Greeks were a lot of people who first kind of articulated some of the stuff and wrote it down. Now a lot of it existed and, been there, they stole most of it and just were the ones to write it down and repeat a lot of it. Right, but that's where. So it's a throwback to, like Greg said, we stick to elements of human behavior and human performance, specifically cognitive performance, that are universal, that have stood the test time. So I'm not going to point some study that came out three weeks ago that everyone's excited about, because that's junk. To me it means nothing. If it hasn't been around long enough, it's probably it's not good yet. And so Arcadia, that's kind of very old and very Greek. And then Cognorati well, we want to come up with what's a term for people who, because we like to say we provide a think with a K and on a thing, a G, right. So what would be the term for the people to think about cognition and metacognition and while there wasn't really good word for it, that went with Arcadia, so we made up Cognorati, right, kind of like Illuminati or something right, the Cognorati, the people who think about things. So that's Arcadia Cognorati, so very old, very Greek, and something we made up. So that's the best way, I think, to do it. And what we really specialize in.
Speaker 2:What Greg was talking about is there's universal elements of human behavior and performance work. No matter where you are in the world, no matter what tribe, country, city you're in, there's basic tenets of psychology and sociology and physiology and neuroscience that transcend language. Language has not been around very long as we know it today, but humans were around a lot longer before there was language existed, so we were able to communicate and get along in certain ways. So we stick to those tenets that are universal so you can learn to articulate them, and a lot of them are sort of things you may know implicitly but you can't say right. Especially if you're law enforcement or security, you gain a lot of tacit knowledge and when you see something you know what it is, you know what's something about, but maybe you can't transfer that, you can't fully articulate it, but you know it when you see it? Well, we provide a lot of scientific lexicon for those things and we call our process HBPRNA human behavior pattern recognition and analysis.
Speaker 2:It's a scientific term for something everyone does every day of their life, right? If you think back to when you're a little kid, you know, no matter who raised you whether it's mom, dad and uncle, grandma, grandpa and they were down the street when they walked in the room before they ever said a word. You knew whether they're happy, whether they're sad, or you got to go run and hide because you're going to catch a whooping, right? That's human behavior pattern recognition. You're born in a sense knowing how to do that. Now we're getting worse of that. Worse you know. The younger you are, the worse you are because of just over reliance on technology, less human interaction, right.
Speaker 2:But the A part, that analysis.
Speaker 2:There's not a lot of good analysis out there and what it typically falls into is you know a pundit on TV talking about something and we go into something about.
Speaker 2:You know well the reason why someone would maybe want to do this, and it's a lot of just conjecture or narrating the TV with the sound off, where we have certain principles that we stick to that, we can say, well, here's the science behind that person, that why, here's the science behind it. And we don't get into, maybe, why people do things. It's more how and how you can identify it, because humans demonstrate their intent. No matter what that intent is, you're going to demonstrate it and you can't hide it. So that's what we focus on those key indicators and that are universal, and we transfer that knowledge and you know, people appreciate the fact that we can take the science so you know, rather than just reading a book and going, wow, that's cool, where the ones go, no, no, no, here's how you use that, here's what that means, all right, so I can give you a pretty good example of that, jason.
Speaker 3:Brian and I are going to a client in the Middle East for our government and the reason that people hired me back in the day was to find bomb makers, snipers or insider threats. That was it. I mean, that's where Combat Hunter came from, that's where ASAT and Border Hunter and everything came from. So Brian and I are going in and we have a young, smart, dapper Lieutenant Colonel that's with us and we're having a conversation going in about Tang, the instant breakfast drink One. It's a fuel, and fuel plus oxygen equals heat. That's like the primary basis for explosives and folks.
Speaker 3:I'm not releasing anything that everybody doesn't know and you didn't learn in high school. But Tang, it becomes a fuel because of the high sugar content that's in it, and so he interrupts us and he goes hey, the place we're going to is Saudi Arabia and the likelihood of anybody on the street having ever heard of Tang is very low. And I'm like, hey, some concepts are universal. So the very first place after we landed that we stopped was Giant Super Panda, which is a great store, hyper Panda.
Speaker 3:Hyper Panda. That's what you find in, because the Super Panda is one, but Hyper.
Speaker 2:Panda is another.
Speaker 3:Okay, and it's even bigger. And we go in there just to grab some stuff for our hotel room because we're going to do some training on our coalition partners. And we go in and this place is the size of a Walmart inside and the first aisle that we come to is Tang, and they had 55 gallon drum Tang all the way down to the little individual ones that you put in your water bottle. And all I did is turn to the guy and smile and, you know, get my fat head smug routine. But the idea is that works everywhere and everybody knows that.
Speaker 3:See, if you have a concept like Boyd's Oodle Loop is a great concept, but Boyd changed it constantly and Boyd was thinking and people are still trying to rewrite it. Well, how does that help me at a swim meet? How does that help me when I'm camping light of fire, if I can't use that knowledge specifically to apply for it? It's a great thing piece. It's great when we're sitting around having a brown liquor and talking about it, but unless I'm a fighter pilot, I want not to use it. You know, how does that help me beat a fish at fly fishing? And those are all the types of things that we give? We give common sense tips and tricks that you can apply at every place in your life. That's going to make you safer and harder to kill.
Speaker 1:Got a lot to unpack here, a lot. Okay, I'm making my notes over here. There's one thing I want to, greg, I want to backtrack to is, like you know, when you're talking about, you know we're going to go to the Wayback Machine here, about four minutes, five minutes ago, when you're talking about, things in the 1980s are different than they are now I mean, obviously, bleeding stoppage, completely different than the 1980s, completely. And it's still. You know, when you're talking quick clot, tourniquets and everything else, you have to adapt to the training environment. You have to adapt to technology. Yes, things work in the past Same concepts, same learning concepts, tactics, techniques, procedures, ttps, you guys can all put them all down, but modernize it.
Speaker 1:We talked about trainers in the past. We talked about people who have these backgrounds, who may not necessarily be training. They've been exposed to a lot of incredible training. They may be the tip of the spear, they may be the bottom of the spear, they may have an expertise in certain areas. But Stale, you have to keep current on everything that's going on. When you talk about quick clock, quick clock came out and like what the you know, decades ago, but it finally caught on during g-watt because of the combat applications. You always have to keep current, and that's what I like about you too that's why I wanted to have you on is staying current For the audience. You know, just give a plate, like, if you're gonna be teaching leos one day and you're gonna be teaching civilians the other day, it's not the same class right no, no.
Speaker 2:Program Greg I just before you go because Greg wrote the combat hunter program for the Marine Corps and people like, oh, is that what you teach today? We're like, no, no, no, the combat hunter program was the first Civitally for Iraq.
Speaker 2:And it's the first iPhone. If you've never seen an iPhone before, it's really, but it's it's. It's obsolete. You can still Capitalize on what worked and what didn't. Continue to refine and get better, and that's what I say. Now is like we're delivering. What we teach now is the 15 and we're already working on the 16 and 17 version yep and Jason.
Speaker 3:So in the late 70s, early 80s in cop work there was a thing called positional restraint, hypoxia, and, having studied physiology Extensively, been a cop for a long time, had to testify in every court in the land except the Supreme Court. The idea back then was listen, if you get a really violent person, there's no problem. Just get a gurney, put him face down on the gurney, strap them in, then you can take them in. And people were showing up dead and they were going like well, maybe, maybe that is a good plan, but not in this context.
Speaker 3:What happens is we get such tunnel vision on what's right in front of us and we don't use those Applications in the future. It's like handguns can't get better than they are right now, rifles can't get better the aim point in this, all these other things. So stop relying on that and go back to your stance and your grip. Go back like how many magazines can you read about the bullet? Well, go back to understanding shot placement. And so what we try to do is we try to say here's the fundamentals in science and math and history that you can build on, and we don't do TTPs. So what we do is we offer those up to you, and now you can either Integrate them into your program or change or modify your program and create your own TTPs.
Speaker 3:I don't know what you do in Brisbane, australia, I don't know in Frankfurt, germany, with the tasers or like, and with the the bar fights are like. So I'm not going to come in there and direct you and and write your program for it. What we're going to do is we're going to say this is how humans behave, this is the you know pre event indications. Here's how intent will manifest itself. And man, you're the expert on the ground. So that's where we try to stay in our lane, and not a lot of people do that, and you know that you run into those folks.
Speaker 1:Love me. Let me tell you something right there is because when you teach a civilian, the reason they absorb so much information is because they're not stuck on an SOP. They're not stuck on a policy development. Now, when you look at an SOP, yes, you could have people have the ground truth developing the SOP and, yes, they could be a standard ISOP. But when it was standard operation, separate standard operating procedures.
Speaker 1:Now, when you turn SOPs into policy and you're getting all these people to approve it whether it's the department, feds, state, local, military or whatever it goes through so many different processes and by the time it gets to the approval rate, it could be anywhere from, like you know, a month to a year. Things may have changed, you may have lessons learned, and then to go back into an do an amendment or do anything else, you got to go through another process. Right, you, you? You cannot be stuck in the past and you can't be stuck in the present, because a present can change the future. That was kind of cool, but hey, but that's what you don't want to mean.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you know you're getting into. That's why we don't really get into TTPs, or if they're ones that we do, can't talk about it's because they're they work in anywhere. I mean that you brought up. Shooting is always a great example. You know, everyone loves doing like the CQB type shooting and it's sexy and it's fun and it's cool. And then it's like okay, this is how you do it this way. And then now there's a vehicle CQB. It's like okay, so now it's gonna change. And it's now, now there's a shooting in elevators, I'm gonna teach you elevator CQB. It's like wait a minute, like if you can't.
Speaker 2:List down to the basic tenants that I can use in a number of situations. You're, you're. I have to learn 37 different ways to do something like that. That's that's so inefficient as a process and doesn't allow me to just use core fundamentals that I can apply in a multitude of situations. That's what we stick to. What are the core concepts that you get really, really good at? You use them anywhere, like I. You know People come up to me like not only the better at their job or better at seeing certain things, or identifying prevent indicators or or or you know, making arrests or doing, finding more on surveillance, whatever it is, they're like.
Speaker 2:Hey, like I, I communicate and understand my wife and my children better. Like yeah you get it. This is, this is a universally human skill set. Right, you can use the same thing If it, if it's touched or influenced by a human being. Right, there are certain things you can learn about that right that are gonna be advantageous to you in every single situation. And the feedback loop is essential.
Speaker 3:So yeah, early on combat hunter. It was to address Sniper situations again, ieds and insider threats. But very first, with snipers, third Marine was taking a lot of hits. They called me into a place called the infantry. Immersive trainer said do your brand of sorcery? That's where I first met Brian, met a bunch of the snipers there, came up with a great counter sniper plan to go into Iraq on the ground and hunt down the Juba teams, and it worked. And so then all of a sudden, the Marine Corps goes hey, there's got to be architecture there that can work on these other things. So that developed now, not a few months later, when the Marine Corps said well, will never be in Afghanistan. So you know that's a different mission. The you know the commandant comes up to me and goes hey, you still got a bag packed and sends me to Afghanistan. What do you think it was like? Hunting Juba in urban terrain and then all of a sudden going out to a place that was farmlands. I'm in Nebraska and the snipers are taking these long shots into convoys and the bombs are in culverts.
Speaker 3:Well, if you're Training program doesn't fit Lithuania and Mexico and downtown Detroit, then broom it because it's worthless. You have to have something that's genetic and DNA-based and everybody immediately gets it. And the only barrier that we've ever had was language and through a term translator, we've taught in 53 countries, so that's not a barrier. You know, there's no culture that immediately threw it down and said yet we don't understand this, it's not gonna work. And the great thing is, when you teach a kid, a kid's gonna get better. So you're teaching fly fishing principles that the more they use those principles, they get better. So we don't sit there and hold your hand through these situations and fish for you.
Speaker 3:We show you. You know, turn over a rock, understand the etymology. Hey, tented wings are different than a bead head. Hey, how do you want to do this in the wind? And how do you roll cast? And once you've got those basics, then you grow. You have to grow in your environment, because I'm not gonna be able to hold your hand the entire time. And that's learning. And you mentioned it, jason, that skill transfer. I'll give you the skill, I'll give you the tools to grow the skill. Then it's up to you to build that that into you know, jason, dough, martial arts or whatever you want to do with it.
Speaker 1:Well, you know, I'm very cognizant of the martial arts community because I am really the epitome of tier one Albert, no, okay, no, the the thing is opening someone's mind and getting out of it. Yeah, you know what do we always say in the infantry? It was always like you know the difference between an infantry platoon and like a tier one operators? It's doing the battle drills and doing the same ones and and doing them over and over until you're an expert at it. I mean there's different. Believe me, battle drills are completely different Every time as you modify them and as you look at them differently.
Speaker 1:But opening your mind and looking at things differently, I mean we talked before about the sound bites. You know the, the, the sound bite of being on the news. You know, back in the day, when I used to do the news, I became a sound bite and that's what. That's how I created the protectors podcast, because I'm like you know what? You need Conversations. You can't be a sound bite. You can't just keep focus on one Side of the equation. You have to open your mind when you're looking at different locations. And you guys do mobile training. That's what's really cool.
Speaker 1:I want to get into the business model. Yeah, training available. But the thing is getting into these different locations. New York City is different than LA, you know. Miami is different than you know DC, but then urban, suburban and rural America is different throughout the whole states. So let's get into the type of training you're bringing out there, you know. Let's talk civilians. You know I always thought law enforcement and military and it's all great for them, but civilians I want to know what civilians can get out of this and what they're looking for.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I'll start off just with something very simple. Everybody has a frequency. Every human being on the face of the planet has a frequency a newborn baby as a frequency, as a matter of fact, when, when you hear the rooster crow in the morning or you hear the birds chirp just before dawn, that's a frequency and they emit that frequency. So bugs know to get started and flowers know to start opening up, for the sun is on its way. So if you take a look at those frequencies, my job for the rest of my life is to tune into Jason FM and Make sure that I keep turning those dials so I hear you clearly. Because the biggest problems that occur with humans are between humans, not technology, and technology isn't going to solve. It's being able to take a look at the person in front of you, understand how full their cup might be and communicate with them in a fashion where you can establish trust and you can de-escalate. In the moment, life is a de-escalation from the earliest man on the face of the planet. It was de-escalating the situation to Gain the most out of the rest of your team so you could accomplish a mission, and whether that was taken down a saber-toothed tiger, or having a baby or, you know, building a fire pit or whatever it was. So we're in that same game today, but what's happened is all this technology is retarded our ability to actually take a look at our surroundings and go, hey, you know, we've spent so much time saying, yeah, I want a number three into a clown's mouth that we don't understand all the things that went into building that situation. So now, where are we susceptible? We're susceptible at the drive-in. Where are we susceptible? We're susceptible in a school. Why? Because we go to the same school every day and we check the f out. You get what I'm trying to say. So we repeat these behaviors and we abandon or have gone far enough away from our survival selves that we forgot how to deal with them. So what we focus on is the critical thinking necessary that comes from a sense making and problem solving. So everything is frequency based. The world is screaming at you. You just have to tune into those signals and go wow, that's a signal for fear. Why is this person in fear? What's happening in their environment? That's changing the atmospheres. That is a love signal. It's based on oxytocin. I'm reading that. Why would that person be flirting with me in this contact. If you break it down that simply, then life becomes this ice cube tray and, yeah, the water spill is kind of into each different one, so it's not that clean. But at the end of the day you can read frequencies and that helps you read people and you can de-escalate any situation.
Speaker 3:And this whole thing about duty to intervene, those are cop terms. De-escalation and duty to intervene, now they're human terms. That's how the earliest humans had to get along. I've got a club, you've got a bone, I want that clam shell that I can turn into a fishing lure, and we have to be able to negotiate those things. So duty to intervene is when, you know, oogluck and Mucktar came in and tried to screw things up and I had to say, hey, I got it from here, you know, and I stepped in.
Speaker 3:And de-escalation was when we were all bumping chest because I want that stegosaurus flank and somebody came in and said, hey, wait a minute, let's split it down the middle and add some grain and it'll go further, and it became stegosaurus helper. That's the kind of shit that we teach, because that's how you step off the X, because, if not, your entire life is standing on the X waiting for that meteor to come in or waiting for that dangerous situation to occur? That's no way to let. So we're not hyper vigilant. We teach people to think their way out of situation.
Speaker 1:They used to do the color coded. Remember that. Oh, you gotta be conditioned this, conditioned that, conditioned this. But the thing, the problem with that is you're saying, okay, I'm going to downtown DC Cause I always say DC, cause I live out there I'm going to go immediately into code orange and I'm going to be ready to go and blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 1:I walk out of my house today. There's a car parked down the road. Something doesn't seem right. That is frequencies. They're birds tripping differently. You know, my dogs bark. I mean, it could be. My dogs are going crazy. My dog has different frequencies. When my dog's barking, when when anybody's coming to the door, it is nuts. Both dogs are crazy. A dog walking down the road, a different bark. There's different things Stir in the middle of the night. The dog barks a little bit different, different. I like how you're saying these, from frequencies it's. And when you're on a road and you know, because you've been driving for a long time, like me, if I look and I see a car and I see the guy's head shift, I know he's going to not use his blinker and he's going to pull into my lane Exactly.
Speaker 1:You're aware it's not always. You know my hand is going to shift a little bit. I'm going to be ready to draw on fire. No, it's how you know what. You just got to be prepared. You got to understand the situations you're getting into. And when you're talking about duty to intervene, yes, law enforcement does have it, but you as a civilian, if you have the tools and capability, are you just have the capability to be a great witness? Know what your availability is of the tools that you have on hand. A lot of people don't realize that if something's going on, maybe the best thing they could do is be a great witness. Get the cell phone out, take some pictures, call 911. It doesn't necessarily have to be like draw a fire, engage, get moved to cover. You know.
Speaker 2:Yep, and you brought up a good point actually about the whole. You know Cooper's color codes and these, and people take this stuff too far Is this? This is some sort of state between this many heartbeats and you know you, you're this is what that fall, and that's not what was meant by any of this. Even that was people trying to make sense of it and put words to to some sort of physiological or psychological arousal, and that's fine, and maybe that helps us understand that that's not how life works, right, your, your. No story ever starts, jason, with with the.
Speaker 2:So there I was, I had a great night's sleep, I got up, I did my workout, I've had a wonderful breakfast and I'm standing there drinking my cup of coffee and I'm watching the situation. Nothing happens like that. That's not when it occurs. Why? Because that's when you're at your most alert, automatically and in the thing is unconscious. Awareness is far faster and far easier to do than you actively trying to. You know, look for things in your environment. Now, you need to have a little bit of training to understand how to look for things, how to observe anomalies or incongruent behavior. But the problem is a lot of people try to boil it down or they pass off. Oh, here's this checklist or these are some things you need. It's like, no, that that works for that specific situation and if I ever run into that specific situation there, it is for me, but it's not going to be like that. I need to understand how to break down the elements of an attack, an ambush, whatever the situation is, or a negotiation, and I can need to be able to take those elements and spread them all out and see them in any environment to go, hey, that could mean this next time, because I saw that over here one time and it led to this. And trying to be proactively, doing that constantly is exhausting and it's unsustainable and it leads to what's called a non-event feedback loop, where you just condition yourself to think you're stay vigilant and nothing ever happens. You never see anything. Well, as long as I stay in this state, I won't well, and you'll stop seeing things. You'll actually miss things in your environment.
Speaker 2:So just being present in that moment, like you're talking about, and understanding, I'm looking for incongruent behavior in my environment and then I have to figure out what to do with that. What does that mean? So what you know? Like you could give a great example of the guy driving the person looking over. Okay, I should probably take my foot off the gas and get a little distance, because he's gonna come over without signaling, he's gonna jump. You can tell by someone who's driving whether they're lost or not. We've all seen that before.
Speaker 2:So what do you do with that? Well, you're gonna wanna back off, you're gonna wanna go around, you're gonna wanna make a decision. So that's with everything right, and that's everything we do is obviously about predictive analysis what's likely gonna happen next, so you can make an informed decision sooner. So you're not waiting, you're not going around, and it's not react to this, and when this happens, I'll do this. And when this happens, it's like all right, so you're just gonna wait. You know you're gonna walk out your house and wait till something happens and react to it Sounds like it's like maybe not the best plan of discovery, learning through life. You know what I mean.
Speaker 3:So let's talk about no, no, it's spot on, brian and Jason. Let's talk about a civilian example of duty and intervene. So folks don't think this is just for military and just for police. Look, I'm known as the pioneer of situation awareness for humans okay, not for computers. And what do people most steal from me? Situation awareness why? Because it's easy and it's the first one on the list. Stop with the situation awareness, because I'll give you two examples where it won't help at all. Number one duty to intervene.
Speaker 3:You've got a kid that's a teenager, that's in school and he's on the computer late at night but you haven't gone in to see the type of sites that he's watching. And guess what? He gets hooked up with some band that is now sextorting him, saying, hey, I'm a girl, send this photo. Or I'm a boy, send this photo. And now they're saying, hey, I've got all your computer lists and I'm gonna send it to your classmates and everybody else. And then the kid because the kid feels that they can't talk to anybody, can't do anything about it, ends up committing suicide. It happened a week ago, right, you look in your news happened a month ago, happened two years ago. Everywhere it's happening. Why? Because duty to intervene is apparent. I don't wanna talk about you sending sex pics to other people in your class. It's hard for me to say that you're aroused at this age group and that these things titillate you and would get you into trouble. We have to stop that. The duty to intervene is parent or peers or somebody that you trust in your situation, that uncle or priest or copper that can come in and help you off that ledge. We don't do that as a society. I'll give you one more. The grants when they were here, are part of this thing where you figure out your family tree. I guess when you get closer to death, that's one of the things. That's really huge, because my brother, brian's doing it the same way.
Speaker 3:Well, do you know what folks Duty and intervene? There's scams associated with that, because you're giving up where you live, who your parents are, what your date of birth is, all these other things and that's all that. People need to start their own websites and bank and now they're calling you and trying to extort you from money. I'm not saying life is a scam. Life is wonderful, I have an amazing life. But you know what? I use those frequencies that are out there to avoid and mitigate danger. And that's the thing. Everything in the world is danger or opportunity, and I wanna know before it happens, so I don't have to drive on that freeway, I can take the exit, I can pull over at the rest stop and let that crazy driver go out ahead of me. And that's not what we're doing. What we're doing is building gates and fences and up armoring our stuff and getting a higher capacity magazine. Listen, that type of reaction. It's not going to stop all threats.
Speaker 3:So the greatest thing is learn how to think your way out of those situations, and that's our architecture. What we teach, the basic course that we teach for anybody, the most basic white level user course, let's call it is three days. Why? Because in those three days you have to show up to the course and understand what the problem is. Then, once you understand what the problem is, we have to be able to categorize and build an architecture for how you think, because guess what? Humans don't think the way that you think you do. And once you understand that there's limitations to human performance and that your eye and your brain can lie to you, you can get out of that situation. And then the last day is all practical application you have, from the afternoon of the second day to the graduation on the third day. You're using it. You're using this newly minted skill in real situations that you're likely to encounter.
Speaker 3:So, whether you're a new mom, or whether you work in HR, or you work at a bank or you clean up at the hotel that's down the street, the idea is building that fundamental architecture for being able to sense, make, predict problems before they occur and then come in there and problem solve. That that's critical thinking. What's advanced critical thinking? The more you do it, the better you get at it, because your brain learns, and so we're helping you train your individual brain and for every human that attends a course, that might be a different cue or something different that makes it sticky. That's why it takes a little while. And you know what? Is it expensive? Yeah, it's expensive, but it ain't more expensive than a new pair of tactical boots for your kid or for that new gosh damn knife that you're gonna buy, you know how-.
Speaker 1:Whoa, whoa, it doesn't matter out there, whoa.
Speaker 3:Okay, well, you know what I'm talking about, jason, because that you know. People go hey, we don't have that in our budget. But we are training, you know, to this new light source, intermittent laser nonsense. I think tech is grand. I'm just saying measure that with your enthusiasm for building this, the most important thing on the battle space, that's six inches for your ears.
Speaker 1:Believe me, you hit up a con. One thing that I'm very positive about, one thing I know for sure, is that the name protector has gone beyond law enforcement and military Absolutely. So just bring up the civilian applications to this. The civilian world are now their own protectors, protectors that are family, protectors of their house, their castle. Now, when you talk about the same type of training and then you put law enforcement into it, you guys tailor make your law enforcement courses for the jurisdictions you go to. I know this because I talked to Absolutely Different people like that is because you have to think about the policies and not just policies, but being backed by their agency but also the media optics of where you're going.
Speaker 1:All this stuff adds up to that split microsecond that you're gonna have to make a decision. And when you make a decision, a million things go through your mind as a law enforcement officer, and one of them is am I gonna be sued? Am I gonna lose my job? Is my family gonna lose their house? And probably in there is yeah, I'm gonna die or I could die but all these other things are in there too. Before it was like fight or flight I'm gonna live or they're gonna die. But now it comes out to oh my gosh, if I pull my gun, if I just pull my gun, I have to fill out a report. I gotta do this, I gotta do that. What if I just pull out my ass? Well, if I do that, then it's a considered use of force. What if I just talk to them? What if I try to use just soft techniques but you're going up against a blitter or someone who has the drop on you because you're already hesitating. That is critical when you're talking about training and talking about developing your mind.
Speaker 1:The Academy for most law enforcement can be anywhere from what? 12 to 18 to 24 weeks. And in there is law, law, law. In there is like touchy-feely stuff for two days, which is great, but it's more of like. Mental health is not in there. Maybe it'll throw a dare to in that. In there, cognitive abilities no, all you're thinking to do is gonna do some scenarios Shoot, don't shoot, Shoot, don't shoot. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And it becomes very procedural and it's almost as if we're gonna put you through these scenarios and you get to pick from a menu. Given this situation, you have option 1A. Under A, you have subset 1, 2, and 3. But, as you know, that's not how life is and so it's become so procedural and it's all about tactics, techniques and procedures and what's approved and what isn't. What you should do in this situation is that people are already coming in, like you said, what do I do if this happens? What do I do if it? And we're like okay, slow time down, hit rewind on this video. It's like there's a ton of these video breakdowns out there and just in my opinion, they're mostly terrible and they all start with what.
Speaker 2:Okay, here's when that happens and you're like whoa, hang on, man, like what was the reason you approached this vehicle? What was the reason you made this decision here? If you could have told this, maybe you would have noticed this here and realized, ah, this is one of those situations. I either need to back up or get some backup here, because this is already escalating now and we haven't even made contact and our whole thing is about thinking your way out of the situation and how to get left of bang and how to gave yourself the gift of time and distance. That's the whole point of this is. It's critical thinking and, like you said, we don't. It's all reaction. It's react to this, react to this, react to that, and everything changes with TTPs and I was talking to even Todd Fox about this.
Speaker 2:He came out to our course. He's awesome. He's been on your show and he's unbelievable what he does and he does a lot of stuff specifically with law enforcement. He's really into Jiu Jitsu but really, really applied in a law enforcement setting and he's incredible. He knows the law and all that stuff. He's a total subject matter expert and he's like well, but just a few years ago it was hey, mobility is survivability. You don't ever go to the ground. And now it's well, everything's gonna go to the ground.
Speaker 2:It's like well, if you have that attitude like you know what I mean, it would be create our own.
Speaker 1:Okay, I got a pause right there. The best, the best memes and this is kind of getting off topic is now every time. Every time there's like a someone making fun of BJJ, it's like all of a sudden, like you're in the, you're in the field and they go automatically. They go to the ground Like the top.
Speaker 1:And they try to do it like it's like but, someone says some things like you know you're, you're the little brother. Remember, like when you're a little brother and you get on the ground, you just kind of kick your brothers, yeah, like stay back. But no, it's true, when you're going into these different situations and you brought up a keyword a keyword is backup. You know, I just took a trip out to South Carolina and I went to visit some small police agencies out there One, maybe two people covering a town during a shift. You're your own backup and that's, that's transcends everything. Nowadays, you know, granted the military, you could have massive backups. You know, at NYPD they call the blue wall or the blue brother or something like that. Something happens, every cop in the city will be there. But if you're on the middle of nowhere and you're from one of civilian, you are your own backup.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You are, you're on the top and you're in.
Speaker 3:That changes your decision, jason. It's. It's the gift of time and distance. So, first of all, coming from a major metropolitan police agency and then coming to a mid-level agency in Colorado and then having to deal with Gunnison and Hinsdale County, where the elk outnumber the humans, okay, the difference isn't just that you have no backup. Backup is an hour and 45 minutes away under ideal circumstances. It's also that you have to handle every aspect of the case.
Speaker 3:You're writing the affidavit for the arrest warrant, you're writing the report and then testifying in court and following the evidence, and you know, safeguarding the chain of custody. You're doing it all. So now you've got all of those external stressors that around you. You're dealing with a vehicle that's probably seen better life because it's a hand me down from another police agency. You know some of the gear that you're carrying you have to buy, so it's to get the time and distance. You know what you find out. You find out that communicating with people is a lot easier than shooting them and that backing out of the situation and allowing a person to save face is a lot better than going into the bar with that asp and just start swinging for the fences. The idea is police work has changed. Humans are the same humans, but guess what? There's a whole different thing going on inside of their head, where they're like yeah, I know it's a law, but I really don't believe in the way that it's being applied in this situation.
Speaker 3:And you're sitting there and the person's taking a video with their phone and they're saying this is the truth. You know not this thing that's happening right in front of me. So what you have to do is you have to get the two training and education. Look, would you go to an ophthalmologist for a procedure on surgery in your eye that hasn't had training in the last 10, 12, 15 years? Would you go to that old country doctor that doesn't know how to, you know, do some stint for some hard thing? The idea is that we try to call ourselves a profession in law enforcement. Guess what? We don't want to keep the professional standards, and now it's a pendulum. Well, you know what's going to get out of this Policy. If we write better policies, we're going to have better cops are on the street. Now. Training's the answer. Training changes behavior, and the idea of us using a light and siren to get to a place quicker, to die, is ridiculous. And we got to come off that X too. No situation, very few situations. My kids choking and officer down in front of me. Very few of those situations are going to have me react more irrationally. And what did we learn from combat on those? What did the Marines. Learn from the house, from hell. Let's keep sending people into the breach until you know there's 10 times the number of injured and then we'll finally get the person. No, there's a better way.
Speaker 3:Humans love to communicate. They want to tell you their story. We got to just back off a little bit and stop pressing so hard. And that once. Look as a caution negotiator. I would come in in any situation that I was where the person was armed. I'd say, give me 60 seconds and I'll change the trajectory of life. And the person would go yeah, I already kind of got that because I got a gun in my mouth and I go yeah, but if you take that gun out and give me 58 seconds, I can change what's going to happen tonight. And he goes yeah, but if I pull the trigger, you know what we're doing. We're communicating. He wasn't communicating before I got there and now I got him talking. And the more I got him talking, the less he's shooting and the less like he's going to shoot himself. That's humans. We can figure out other humans and we're really good at it. It's just we haven't used those skills in a while.
Speaker 1:Okay, Greg, I got you right there.
Speaker 3:I got you.
Speaker 1:Because you brought up. I'm going to backtrack to the 30 minutes ago, when you brought up technology. You brought up the fancy lasers, the dots on guns, this and that and everything else. Tools are great. It's great to have the proper tools. If I have put a red dot on my pistol, maybe I'll shoot better. You're going to put on some optics on a rifle. You could shoot farther because you could see farther. They're tools, yeah, but human talking to someone is the biggest, the best tool you have.
Speaker 3:Yep.
Speaker 1:It's apropocal in almost every situation, almost every situation. And, believe me, there are situations where you do have to shoot first and then later on you're going to answer some questions. But overall, having that demeanor to be able to talk to every different person, based on who they are, what their background is, is different. Every we know, like I talked to you guys a lot different than I talked to someone you know. You know one of my buddies or my brother. I'm always like when my brother I'm like bro. But, like you know, with you guys it's like this I know we're going to be talking about this, we're going to be talking about that, similar backgrounds here and there. But when you're going into a bar and some guy might be slightly intoxicated, some lady might be slightly intoxicated, you amp up, they amp up, everybody amps up. You're the. You don't have backup, and there's two or three people you're talking to. You're not going to lower your defenses, you're not going to bow down to them, but you're going to have a different type of way to talk to them. It is something that's learned, but it's learned through experience and it's it can be learned through training, putting people in these scenarios, getting them used to opening their mouth. We do rely a lot on technology. Communication is different now. It's a little short burst with text and everything.
Speaker 1:Talking to people is key. You're first on the job, or even a civilian. You know civilians have the option. You can avoid conflict. A lot of times you can say don't amp up the road, rage, drive away, hit the brakes, get out of there. Long enforcement. You don't have that opportunity, you don't have the access. You can't just disengage when things just don't feel right. I mean you can, but you know, a lot of times you have that duty to intervene. So, yeah, I really like the idea of this training. I really want to take a training with you guys because now that I'm, now that I'm not, now that I am a full civilian, it's different. I don't have the luxury of having a badge Right, not that there's a luxury, but yeah, I don't. I don't have that, that ability to. You know, I'm now full, bonafide civilian.
Speaker 2:Jason.
Speaker 1:I'm actually one.
Speaker 2:I'm going to tell you I'm going to send you info for our Liberty University course. It's in Virginia next month. If you're, if you're, if you're around, I'll send you info.
Speaker 3:Let me throw one at you, brian and I. No other case, let's say without attribution. Guys in his house, a guy in a ninja style motorcycles going up and down the street, racing up and down. Racing up and down guy gets pissed, goes out. All of a sudden you hear some noise out in the street and he comes back in the house and he sets the gun down in front of his wife at the kitchen table and says you need to call the police and I need a lawyer. What happened in those few seconds outside is the situation accelerated. There was a gun involved.
Speaker 3:That seemed like the right solution at the time, and now, when we relax and we're thinking about it, it was not the right solution. Civilians need the training because something that is going to seem like the most important life changing event that's right in front of you right now isn't. And tomorrow, even 9-11, the day after you could go and buy an Arby's and there was TV shows on and I could go and get gas in my car and as horrible as that was that those thousands of people died, the sun came up in the east and set in the west, and that's the shit that we try to think about. Is that you can prioritize your life and your family. The same training that I would use execute in a high-risk felony search warrant. It's the same stuff that I use when I get gas at the 7-11 or when I go to church. I mean it has to be, and so that's why, as a civilian, you need it more probably than some of those operators. And, jason, you know that your skills atrophy the longer you're not on the mat too. So you know, I mean you're only as good as the last training event that you went to We'd love to see.
Speaker 3:A cool thing about a place like Liberty is not only do we associate with the academic higher education stuff, but it's free to LE first responders, courts, corrections. So that's our way of giving back. And also, you know, brian, and I have our book that's coming out, and you're going to be on the leading edge of that because both of us have your book and we love it. The idea is, the book that we built isn't all this war story horseshit. It's a textbook. It's how to. How do you put these things together? How do you mix your paint before you put it on a wall? Do you need a primer? You know what kind of spatula is best to fill that nail hole, but we just do it in the guise of human performance, human behavior and cognition. So we're excited about that as well and I just want to tell you it's great to be on your show because you talk about the stuff that really matters and I know you probably can't tell, but we excited about that. We love to talk about that topic.
Speaker 1:You know, mia, I could talk. I think we're going to make this into a part two. I think I really need to come back on. I want to talk more about the law enforcement applications. I also do want to talk about integrating this type of training into, like the protectors foundation, getting some training out there to these small departments out there.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:There's so much more that you need in training than is just with the firearm. There is so much more. I mean fire, I believe me, I love it, I love shooting, I shoot all the time, competition, everything else like that but there's so much more to opening your mind than just pulling the trigger. So, gentlemen, I appreciate coming on. Arcadia Cognorati, let me get that website out there. I pull it up, that's really easy, arcadiacognoraticom, and we'll have one If you could say you're going to want to follow that link If you can spell it.
Speaker 2:That's the first hard to think of.
Speaker 3:I think right.
Speaker 1:It's. I don't know. I could probably do Alpha Romeo, charlie, alpha, delta, india, alpha, charlie, oscar Goal for November Echo Romeo, alpha, tango, indiacom. Boom Fire, mission Fire.
Speaker 2:Well done, that's the thing that's learning that and how to say human behavior. Pattern recognition and analysis is the most difficult thing you have to learn.
Speaker 3:They're gaining back in it.