#353 | Ted Andre & Fred Burton | Conclusion

Ted Andre & Fred Burton return to The Protectors Podcast™ to discuss the hunt for Colonel Joseph Alon's assassins.  In Part IV we dive into the case developments in the 1990s and follow Ted & Fred's paths.  @tandrepics @officialfredburton 

Make sure to check out Fred's book Chasing Shadows: A Special Agent's Lifelong Hunt to Bring a Cold War Assassin to Justice. On a warm Saturday night in July 1973 in Bethesda Maryland, a gunman stepped out from behind a tree and fired five point-blank shots into Joe Alon, an unassuming Israeli Air Force pilot and family man. Alon's sixteen-year-old neighbor, Fred Burton, was deeply shocked by this crime that rocked his sleepy suburban neighborhood. As it turned out, Alon wasn't just a pilot he was a high-ranking military official and with intelligence ties. The assassin was never found and the case was closed. In 2007, Fred Burton who had since become a State Department counterterrorism special agent reopened the case.


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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:02

Oh,

Speaker 2: 0:18

Welcome back to this special series with two excellent guests and two great friends, Fred Burton. Ted Andre, welcome back. We're gonna conclude our, I believe we're on our five part series right now, talking about the assassination of Colonel Joseph Ilan and July 1st, 1973, and about Ted's dad, Arthur. So gentlemen, welcome back in. I really, really appreciate you sharing these stories. I love history. This is awesome. Thank you for having us.

Speaker 3: 0:46

Thanks so much, Jason.

Speaker 2: 0:48

So let's talk about it. Well, you know, we talked about the 1980s, talked about the 1970s and nineties. We're on the hunt. Fred, you're picking up the trail, you're getting more senior in your career. What were the steps and when did this really start going active and, and how did you put together really tracking down East culprits?

Speaker 3: 1:09

It's a great question and, uh, one that I would like to say, um, was a tremendous team effort on the part of, uh, former retired cold case detective with, uh, the Montgomery County Maryland Police, where this political assassination had taken place in 1973. And you had these two, uh, two old cops, uh, pretty much, uh, me and Detective Ed Goly that, uh, started to deep dive into what happened and some of the, the things that were not followed up. And it really started to come together, uh, in the mid two thousands, Jason and, uh, when we started, um, dissecting down into, you know, some of the threat actors that were more than likely in involved in the case. Uh, but, you know, the case, having been formally closed by the F B I in 1976, just three years after the murder, was something that just never set right with me. I, it just made no sense to me. So, uh, those are the kinds of mysteries that we could not get to because the individual that closed the case with the FBI had passed away by the time we started looking at it. So by the mid two thousands is when we started to connect all the dots and pretty much figured out, uh, that, uh, the Black September organization, the group that had been responsible for the Munich massacre in 1972, uh, were actually the, uh, the, uh, planters and the organizers and the individuals behind the killing of Colonel Joe Ilan.

Speaker 2: 2:51

I'm sure there was a ton of hum going on behind the scenes even and beyond this cold case, cuz this is truly a cold case now. And this is kind of like, you know, Ted, that's one thing that I want to intersect in with you is your dad's discussions. This case is closed, it's cold, and it's in the back of his mind as well. Same thing with Fred, it's like kind of dueling right now of, of the passion to go after this. So Ted, let's, let's get the inter introspection from, you know, your dad's concerns and your dad's journals and what he said to you.

Speaker 4: 3:22

Well, the thing that that struck me is when he mentioned the name and he mentioned the murder, uh, I didn't recall hearing anything about it at the time, and that would play into kind of what Fred's hinted at as well, where this is kind of being looked at and investigated. So this wouldn't be something that would be discussed in the family, of course, and I was kind of used to that. So, uh, at an early age I got used to not asking too many questions. So when he did bring this up in our last conversations, it was, uh, it was pretty remarkable in that regard. So I thought, okay, let me write the, write the name down. He said, uh, consult that Google thing and maybe you can find some information. And so, uh, yeah, I wrote down the details and he shared some information with me that was pretty key. And I know he had mentioned Black September and mentioned that the threat was called out on us as well. And then the other thing that kind of struck me as interesting is that it happened in Maryland. And I recall when we lived in Virginia as a kid, you wouldn't expect this sort of thing to go on, which kind of echoes some of what Fred had said as well. And then the other thing that struck me is the information that Dad shared, uh, varied completely. In fact, it was at odds with what I read, uh, in the New York Times piece that was sold by Carlos the Jackal. So when I saw what he was talking about and versus what I knew firsthand, that struck me as something certainly to look into, nevermind the actual circumstances of the case. So I've got intel that's different from what is the top of the news, and I've got firsthand experience. And according to everything I've learned was one of my father's, uh, closest associates in the special ops days. So that led to a whole, whole wealth of digging into this information to try to put some of the pieces together again from a perspective of I really had no idea until he shared that with me. I knew that we had a lot of, uh, friends that would come over to our place in Virginia back in the day, and a lot of folks from obviously the, the special ops group and a lot of Israeli guests as well. So I was kind of putting this all together as I started to learn more and especially after connecting with Fred and really kind of getting a sense of what the gravity was.

Speaker 3: 5:21

And Jason, I would just like to add, I, when you step back and you think about this case much like, um, I have for a long period of time, you know, here you have this murder that took place in 1973 and we're still talking about it today. It wasn't too long ago that, um, actually the driver of the ambulance that took Colonel Alan to the hospital that night reached out to me to share some new details surrounding his observations of what took place at night. So when Ted reached out to me, uh, I wasn't surprised, but yet I always am that this case continues to try to, uh, pick together pieces of the puzzle that are slowly still coming together, even though we have a good matrix of exactly what took place. But, uh, facts and truth is stranger than fiction. When you start looking at not only my background and, and think about it in context with Ted coming from the rock and roll and film industry and, uh, then Ted's dad. And, you know, one of my biggest regrets in looking through this case, Jason, and you know this from your history and your work in this space, is that I just wish that I had been able to talk to Ted's dad in the eighties when I first started looking into this case. And, uh, unfortunately we were just as challenged, uh, in many ways as we were in the eighties as the F b I was challenged in the seventies trying to look into who killed Joe Alan and why.

Speaker 4: 7:07

Oh, and to Fred's point, the other thing that that I found was really eye-opening is as I started to get the journals or pieces of the journal, and I still have more on the way by the way, so there'll be more dots put together. But to see Colonel Alan's name written in my dad's writing along with his wife's name, a lot of details from the various meetings, there was some stuff that was in what appears to be some sort of a code, which we've also then, uh, tried to sort of gain more details on over the, the last several months. And what's interesting is through the conversations with like people like you and, uh, Fred and Jason, when I look through there, I different things catch my interest and I'll always email Fred right away and go, Hey, what about this context here? And we're still kind of piecing more, uh, intel together. So I think the journey is, is still ongoing to a degree, but what we've learned so far versus where we started is pretty significant.

Speaker 2: 7:57

You know, Fred brought up a really great point about a puzzle and anybody who's been in an investigative realm, and especially if you're working any type of case, whether it's cold or active, is putting these pieces at a puzzle together and you don't have a a true clear picture until all of them are together. And that is, I, that is the one thing I enjoyed so much about being a special agent and being an investigator is putting together those pieces of puzzle. Now, Fred, as you're putting these pieces down and you're seeing all these things coming together and you're getting interviews, you're getting facsimiles from here and there, does the case become open again?

Speaker 3: 8:37

The case becomes open, uh, was always open to, uh, the cold case Detective Ed Gok and me. Uh, I knew that, um, in many ways two governments had failed. Colonel Olan, not only ours, which I was very much part of. I I'm not very proud of that. I, I've said that on many other occasions I wish I had done more when I was in an official capacity to do so. And, uh, so had the Israeli government to some degree. So, um, as this all came together in February of 2010, when we were able through some source information to identify exactly who pulled the trigger, uh, it was almost bittersweet to me. But to Ted's point, this is why I'm so eager to still hear from people and to read Ted's dad's journals, is there's still missing things that I don't know such as who drove the getaway car that night. Uh, how long had Colonel Alan been under surveillance before the attack took place? And you know, at my age and this case, I don't know if we'll ever know the answer to a lot of these questions, but I think, uh, from a collaborative perspective, I'm pretty darn sure I'm not going to give up and I doubt Ted is either,

Speaker 4: 10:02

Nope, absolutely. Failure is not an option.<laugh>,

Speaker 3: 10:05

You sound like your dad probably.

Speaker 4: 10:07

Oh, and I, I, I should throw in one thing that's interesting here. And in the course of our discussions here in the people that have seen and listened to some of the interviews that we've conducted with the three of us here, I've been, uh, contacted by folks from the military space, which may be commonality with, uh, with you gentlemen as well, but a guy called Gene Pugh who's a writer. And he was also in Max, uh, we've been collaborating on a couple of items and he also is friends with John Stryker Meyer. And what's interesting is Gene was at a Shante raid event, and this is back in, I wanna say like 2009 ish, and he has my dad's signature on a book that he got that day. So as he went around and was talking to the different people in that event, he has my father's signature,

Speaker 2: 10:52

You know, this, this assassination and your dad's friendship with Colonel Joseph, Alan, it, it's so significant that some of his last conversations with you were about this

Speaker 4: 11:04

Now. Well, and to your point, he never mentioned it until very, very near the end. So I e it could have been, he could have brought this up in the early two thousands, you know, he started to get familiar with email and understood that we could search things electronically, but he never mentioned it until right towards the very end there, which meant that it certainly had some weight and significance and there was, there were, it was an unusual and special case.

Speaker 2: 11:25

It had to been, and then he took on the mission. And what was that like when you first started peeling this back and then you, uh, essentially become part of the hunt cuz you're hunting for information, so you're hunting to learn more, not just about the assassination, but I believe about your dad and about, you know, this is strengthening your relationship by the more you learn about it.

Speaker 4: 11:45

Exactly. And to that point, what's interesting is as I read through Ghost and I read through Fred's memoirs and I'm thinking about the training and the, let's just say unique skillset that these gentlemen have, it starts to kind of put more dots together. Because as one of the sh uh, stories I've shared about, uh, when dad came out to visit, for example, and we are sitting in a Beni Hanas and, you know, he just had a one day in town and I go to the restroom to clean up and come back in three minutes. He knows 12 people around the table, their first and last name, what they do for a living, where they're from, and he's speaking fluent Japanese with a waitress. And so certainly it, it kind of brings questions like, so what did, what exactly do you do here? And then the other recent revelation that I learned through my cousin, uh, my uncle flew recon and asked our 71. And so he and my dad did a lot of ops together and we learned that dad was, uh, of course in a think tank with Tom Clancy for many years in, in the early days. So I would imagine hunt for red October in a lot of those early works, he lent that, uh, empirical and experiential level of authenticity based on his own experiences to the degree that he could, given that it's, uh, in the, in the fictional space to a degree. So interesting to learn that I had no idea at all until very recently on that one.

Speaker 2: 13:00

It's such an amazing backstory, both of you gentlemen. Now, Fred, the hunt started, it's cold. Do we get the Feds involved with it now? Does Israel say, Hey, you know what, there's more information popping up, they've dropped the ball. Are they gonna be like, Hey, you know what, we're gonna run with it again?

Speaker 3: 13:18

Well, uh, that is somewhat bittersweet for me, meaning, um, I know when I was in my official capacity, uh, the, uh, information flowing back on the case was, um, very limited to practically none. Uh, but again, uh, I think it was just a matter of overwhelming threats and terrorist attacks in the world during that time period when I first started looking into this. Now, in fairness, uh, to, uh, both governments, uh, detective Ed Goan made a very good effort to, uh, reach out to the, to the bureau. Uh, and, uh, I was able to find the original F B I case agent Stan Ornstein, uh, god rest his soul. Uh, Stan has since passed away, but, um, he was a tremendous wealth of information and was somewhat flabbergasted that, uh, the bureau had closed the case and, and he was just very helpful and actually went back to the crime scene with us, uh, on one reunion we had there. And, um, filled in a lot of missing pieces of the puzzle. But, um, once I learned the identity of the individual that, uh, I believe pulled the trigger, uh, I was able to pass that along to, uh, detective Ed Goon. And then also I was able to, to back channel that information, uh, into, uh, the Israeli government, uh, for whatever they saw fit, uh, to, uh, to do. Uh, and, um, uh, so, you know, it's like any cases, uh, Jason, uh, and I go into this in, in, into chasing shadows. Um, I'm not very proud of the work I did early on, uh, but I think that, um, the work we did and continue to do subsequently to the killing of this hero of the state of Israel, uh, was the right thing to do. And I still believe that and firmly believe that. Uh, so now I think it's, you know, a race against time in many ways, um, out there for not only witnesses, uh, individuals that might have some knowledge surrounding the case, uh, and and others. So that's why the kinds of things that Ted and I are doing now and and your your very gracious, uh, ability to use this as a platform to get the word out is, is very much appreciated.

Speaker 4: 16:04

Mm-hmm.<affirmative>.

Speaker 2: 16:06

Now I'd like that. We can talk about that cuz what's that? The old adage, if you stop saying someone's name, they become a memory and then they just fade away and nobody will ever remember them. The more we bring up this, bring this up, you never know what piece of the puzzle is left. You never know how really big that puzzle is left. And it might shine more light on Ted's dad and dad, I want to, you know, we're wrapping up this episode and we're wrapping up this conclusion, but I, we're not wrapping up the story. And I want you to kind of, I want you to take a, a a couple minutes and tell us about your dad. I want, you know, you know, we've kind of brushed on your dad, I wanna know about your dad born, where was he born, uh, where is he interned at, and just a little bit more, anything you wanna share with everybody out there about your dad. I think that'd be great.

Speaker 4: 16:51

Yes, he was born in Cleveland and, uh, very much a a a easygoing, and that's the thing that's interesting too, is given what I know now about his line of work, he's very easygoing, uh, instantly got along with everyone in the room, um, and very engaging and and relatable. And that's the thing too that's interesting is, is I, I recall it my, at my wedding and my wife and I had a bunch of friends over, and there was one friend in particular who'd never met my father, but somehow at the end of the wedding, just after having a simple conversation goes, you know, I'd help your dad bury bodies if need be. And I don't quite know why he came up with that, because there was no mention of the actual line of work. But, uh, I learned that skill from him. So when I saw, for instance, that he would learn everybody at the table and what they did, it's, it's this way of relating to people that I think is a valuable skill in whatever field that you're in. So again, very engaging, very likable. He liked, uh, he liked music. Turned me on to Johnny Cash and Elvis and, uh, was a, was a big fan of playing music and, and a big fan of the outdoors. So he began his career, uh, in Idaho as a lumberjack, believe it or not. And, uh, graduated from the University of Idaho with a degree in forestry. And so that was his background prior to getting into, uh, special ops. But yeah, overall he loved, loved the holidays and was a big proponent of, of family. So just a likable guy, you know, on, on every level.

Speaker 2: 18:16

See, that's the kind of stories we need. We, a lot of times we get to like, okay, you know, Fred Counter-terrorism agent went after bad guys, but their true story of who you, who someone is, and we know your dad was in a military, we know he did a lot of spooky stuff and had been by around the community, but knowing that he was an actual person. And that's the same thing with Colonel Joseph. Alan, he was an actual person, a family man, just like your dad was a family man. And that's why we're gonna, I wanna really talk to Fred about this final step, this final apprehension and how that happened and how that part of the story closed.

Speaker 3: 18:54

Well, uh, in essence, uh, once, uh, I was able to ferret out some very specific information concerning who had been responsible for this attack. Again, it was the black September organization. Uh, I was able to come up with the identification of the person who had fled the United States after the shooting. Uh, and he actually had been relocated under a false identity and, um, was able to put him, uh, in a specific place in time. And then I went through some of my, um, uh, Israeli intelligence contacts and said, you know, here, I know this happened a long time ago, but uh, you might find this of, of interest. And then, um, I learned, uh, shortly thereafter that, um, the matter had been resolved. And, uh, that's kind of how the book Chasing Shadows ended. Uh, so I'll leave it to the reader to conclude what exactly transpired, uh, knowing how, uh, the Israeli teams operate around the world. But, um, just like we're chatting today, there's still others out there that very much were a part and parcel in my mind to this targeting of Colonel Joe Alan, a hero of the state of Israel. And I'm, I'm almost more embolden now. To your point earlier on Jason, when you asked about Ted's dad, you know, here were two warriors in time that wore different uniforms, but, um, out of concern for the protection of their countries served and, um, in a very difficult and challenging time in the world, uh, when the threats were nonstop. And, uh, I think at the end of the day, what, what we have been doing and what Ted has done following his dad's dying wishes, uh, is a very noble cause. Uh, because to your point, uh, we should never forget. And, um, I would only hope that, um, we can still learn of new details that we still don't know the answers to. And I've remained confident and optimistic that new information will come to light as we continue to, uh, keep the memory of Colonel Joe, Alan and Ted's father alive.

Speaker 4: 21:37

No, I, I agree too, and I'm looking forward to getting those journals to kind of put a little, some breadcrumbs out there that there's still, we're still on the hunt and there's still more information to uncover. And given the ceremony that I saw for dad at Arlington, both my parents are there. The level, the level of, uh, circumstance, the level of of ceremony certainly speaks to what you have both pointed out in terms of the level of service of the country. So that certainly a day I'll never forget. And so Fred's point, this kind of makes us continue on the hunt and just can't give up.

Speaker 2: 22:10

No. And I'm looking forward to having that another episode later on when we have more information, when we have more information from the journals and we get more pieces of the puzzle put together. Gentlemen, I've really, really enjoyed these last episodes and I look forward to really coordinating more in, in the future. Thank you so much for coming on. Thank

Speaker 3: 22:31

You. Thank you, Jason.

Speaker 4: 22:33

Yes.