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The Protectors® Podcast
Welcome to The Protectors® Podcast, where the valor meets the storyteller. Hosted by Jason Piccolo, a seasoned veteran and retired special agent, this series is a must-listen for anyone intrigued by the courage and tales of those who pledge to protect us. Beyond the front-line stories of bravery and dedication, this podcast goes a step further, weaving in the perspectives of those who bolster and narrate the protector's journey—featuring a remarkable lineup including New York Times Best Sellers and acclaimed Hollywood actors.
The Protectors® Podcast offers a diverse array of voices, from those who wear the uniform to the authors and entertainers who amplify their stories. It's a unique blend that highlights not only the raw realities faced by our protectors but also how their sacrifices inspire the narratives we cherish in literature and film. Each episode is a testament to the interconnected worlds of service and support, bringing listeners an unmatched depth of insight.
Dr. Jason Piccolo is a retired federal agent, former U.S. Army Infantry Captain (Iraq 2006), and author.
Past Guests Include:- Sean Patrick Flanery - Andrews & Wilson- Mark Greaney- Stephen Hunter- Remi Adeleke - Florent Groberg - Clint Emerson - Travis Mills
The Protectors® Podcast
#489 | Tim Meleski | Ouroboros Forge | From Service to Civilian Life: Navigating Mental Health, Identity, and Artistry
Strap in for a raw and revealing episode as I sit alongside Tim, a battle-hardened ex-Marine and MARSOC operator. Together, we peel back the layers of transitioning from a life of discipline and service to the civilian world, a journey riddled with challenges. Tim's personal narrative sheds light on the identity crises that can follow military discharge.
We navigate the turbulent waters of mental health, discussing the critical need for transparency with struggles like PTSD and TBI. Tim opens up about his battles and the profound impact that alternative therapies, such as DMT, had on his life.
Make sure to check out Jason on IG @drjasonpiccolo
Hey, welcome to the protectors podcast. I should start calling this coffee in the protectors. That doesn't sound good. Come up with something with coffee involved with it, Tim, welcome to the show man.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thanks, it's good to be here. I appreciate you having me on.
Speaker 1:No, I'm glad you reached out, or I reached out. I don't even know how we linked up, but I'm glad we did.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we got linked up through a mutual contact.
Speaker 1:Very cool man and we're going to talk about one of the two topics Well, two of the three or four topics I really like to talk about, one is transition. I love talking to people about their transition, whether that's and we're talking and this, we're talking about career and life transition. We're not talking about other types of transition.
Speaker 1:We're talking about I got you there we're gonna be talking about knives, because I love knives, man. I've loved knives since I was a kid, and then my other two are like guns and coffee. But today we'll get. We'll touch on two of them at least. But the first thing I want to to talk about, I do want to welcome you to the show, man, and I love what you're doing. I love your work. I was just checking out your IG and later on we're going to talk about where we could find you and all the really cool things that's going on with you. 2022. And it may seem like a kind of a long time for you because you're living it, but to us, 2022 is right around the corner. I mean, it was right there and it was. It was it. It's an interesting transition to go from like being in such a highly adrenalized, adrenalized world to being a civilian. So let's get into that, and I know you really wanted to tell that story.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely, because there's there's a lot of things that I thought I knew, things that I prepared for, which didn't quite work out the way that I thought, and so I guess I'll just kind of jump into it. So I spent just under 18 years in the Marine Corps, and 12 of it was with MARSOC as a critical skills operator and, as you said, it's a very high stress life. You know, it's very taxing physically and mentally. And you know I'd had some trauma in the beginning of my career, my first deployment, and lots of trauma as like a kid and stuff, and these are things that you know, you don't realize it, but they start to pile on and um, and it really started affecting me at home and at the job and stuff.
Speaker 2:And so, um, I knew pretty early on or I shouldn't say early on, but like about a year and a half prior to getting out I knew that it was going to be happening and that you know I was going to need to step away and, uh, I didn't want to make the same mistake that a lot of guys make, which is like trying to figure out what you're going to do and stuff as you're leaving the service. And so, because I knew from before. I was just like I just I knew I couldn't do it anymore, um, and that I was becoming a liability to the team, um, and so I was like I need to start planning now, um, but there's, there's a strange dynamic when it comes to I'm assuming this is throughout the military, but most of my you know experiences with soft um, but, uh, there's a lot of opportunities that you're afforded while you're in soft as far as like courses and, uh, you know things of that nature. So, um, it's kind of a a crappy way that the system works, but it is what it is, um, you know you have individuals that know that they're going to get out and need to start taking care of themselves and taking care of what they need to to to prepare for that Um, but they also don't want to let go of the opportunities that you know may come their way in the form of schools and stuff, because that'll help them in their transition, depending on you know the sort of career that they want to do after.
Speaker 2:But there's a thing like, once you raise your hand and you're like, hey, I'm getting out, you get sidelined, you get taken off a team, you get put into the S3 like operations, and it really sucks. But at the same time, like from an organizational standpoint, it's easy to understand that you know there are minimum skills that are needed on a team at any given place and time and, uh, you know you, they. They can't just give you some of these skills and then have you leave, right, so they need to save that for the people that are actually going to stick around. Um, however, it is kind of frustrating for the operator, you know themselves, and so a lot of the times what ends up happening is, you know, you go to raise your hand or you wait until the last second, basically to say that, hey, I'm getting out, and I'm guilty of that too, because there were, there were things that I wanted to accomplish in my career that I knew because of you know where I was at mentally and physically, and stuff that I just wasn't going to be able to accomplish, especially if I then said, hey, I'm, I'm, I'm ready to get out and I'm going to be transitioning. So, um, backing up back to, like I said, I knew I was getting out, I knew I needed to prepare, and some of the things that I started looking into um was, I know that one of the major mistakes that people do is they identify with what they do Like that's their job, is who they are, and when you no longer have that job, then you're completely lost because you don't know who you are anymore.
Speaker 2:And so and I was one of the people too I very much identified with being an operator like that was and it's all it's. I breathed it, you know, slept it, breathed it, like everything. Like my friends were my teammates, you know my, obviously my coworkers were my teammates, like, um, I was, I was always with them. Uh, everything was all about the team, you know, the team came before my family, like, came before everything, you know, sort of thing, and uh, so I was very much like in the community and uh, very much attached to the identity of operator, and so I knew that I was going to need to start divorcing myself from that.
Speaker 2:And so what I and this is like what I recommend people to do, and this doesn't always solve the problem, but at least helps with the transition is start redefining things and expanding definitions that you have. Like, for instance, what is a warrior Right, like some people would look at? Like a warrior being? Like without war, you can't be a warrior because it's like literally in the name right, which is inaccurate. So some people lose that meaning of who they were once they leave, because they're no longer practicing, you know, the whole preparing for war or actively deploying for war.
Speaker 2:And so I started looking at that, expanding the definition of how I conceived a warrior, and one of the things, too, that I realized was because of the job and because of the fact that I identified so strongly with it, you know, I was viewing everything through that lens and so I was really only seeing a facet of what life had to offer. And and so by expanding these definitions, I started, you know, revealing these extra facets of life and it really helped me basically be okay with not doing what it was that I, you know, was currently doing at the time, and so redefinitions of stuff like what strength sort of thing, because my shoulders are wrecked, you know, like both of them are torn. I have like torn rotator cuffs in both and you know, and I hid the injuries for a very long time and stuff. But I knew there was just certain things I just wasn't going to be able to do anymore that could be considered like warrior ask and so I needed to redefine like what strength was you know? And I started looking into, you know philosophy and psychology and things and expanding that definition to something more like you know, understanding that you know love is strength too, which sounds kind of funny, coming, you know, from someone with my background, but there's just a lot of growing that I knew that I needed to do prior to leaving.
Speaker 2:And on top of that, you know, obviously you, you start divorcing yourself from what you do. Like a perfect example is in SOF, like you have in the Marine Corps, you have scout snipers right and you have machine gunners and there's there's these different jobs and especially in those two communities, they identify with that Like you would not believe and that's that's part of their strength while they're in, but that that's a massive disadvantage when you get out. And uh, I, I, what I did was I took the concept of like when you have a sniper, come to a soft team like you're, you're not a sniper, that's just a skill set you have. Now. Same with, like the machine gunner, like when, if you were a machine gunner from before you go through selection, you come like cool man, like you know how to use a machine gun really well now, but you're not a machine gunner, you're an operator. Like a machine gunning or a machine gunnery is just something you do now. And so, um, I just kind of expanded that same sort of mindset into exiting and being like, hey, like you're, you're no longer an operator, that's just something you did, you know, and um, uh, and so that that's that's big thing that helped, you know, or number one that helped.
Speaker 2:And then the next was basically discovering, looking into, prior to getting out, looking into something that I enjoyed, something that I was good at and something that I could get paid doing Right. And so, because of the trauma thing, I kind of just fell in on, uh, you know, making blades and uh, because on a team you have like no time for anything Like if, if I wasn't like actively training or sleeping I was, there was no other time for anything else or deploying or you know that sort of thing. Um, you know, uh. So once I became an instructor and started teaching at the schoolhouse, I had like a little bit of breathing room to like pick up a hobby and that that happened to be bladesmithing and at the time because, like I previously mentioned, with the trauma and stuff. A really common thing that ends up happening is, guys, you know, they don't talk about it, they drink about it, and that that was me.
Speaker 2:I developed a major alcohol issue. I was abusing other substances like Adderall and like there. There was just a lot of stuff going on that I was doing to try and push away the vulnerability and the weakness I was feeling so that I could continue to the job or do the job and uh, and appear to be strong, and you know, so I didn't lose opportunities. Also, um and uh, I kind of uh, picked up bladesmithing, like I said, I kind of just fell into it and all of a sudden, I, you know, I have this thing in front of me that I'm holding and I created something, and this is something that's useful and it's something that someone else can use and perhaps even make me money versus, you know, drinking my problems away and then breaking some of my own furniture or something in a fit of rage, you know, and and uh, uh, so that I started and because, not only that, but when you're focused on a task, everything else melts away Um, which that's something that you got to be careful with, because that is a way of coping as well. Um, but it's, it's a better method of coping than using a substance, right, and so I became obsessed with uh, with making blades and uh, and that's basically.
Speaker 2:I would wake up early cause I was barely sleeping at the time, so I would wake up early, I would get into the shop and work, go do my full-time job as an instructor, and then I would come and then I'd work all night on blades and the. The reason I bring that up is not to say that you got to work like that, but being able to find that thing that you enjoy, find the thing that you're good at and that someone will pay you for is, and doing that while you're in and then, while you have you know that that monetary stability, being able to use that to then buy the equipment and stuff that you'll need in the business later if it's entrepreneurial or whatever In my case it was I was slowly purchasing the equipment that I would need to make high quality knives later, because I had the stability of being active, duty and developing those skill sets on my free time. Um, and so uh that, that that was huge for me. That gave me, uh one, an outlet while I was in to a business that I could transition to, um, while taking care of my own mental health, which ended up coming, you know, while I was active duty, and ended up, you know, coming to uh, what would you say? A point where I had to be like all right, like stuff's not working anymore. Man, this is not sustainable, like I'm now like a detriment to the team, so I'm like I need to go get help.
Speaker 2:And that's when I, like I said, I kind of built the things that I thought that I needed for transition. And once I had gotten to that point, I was like, okay, now I can start the process to exit and I can start taking care of myself. And, uh, you know, my, my issues were bad enough. Um, because, like it started out initially with me going to try to get a sleep study, cause I was like I'm not sleeping, I'm sleeping like two or three hours a night, and that's like interrupted and uh, and, and then they were like, okay, well, first you need to fill out this tbi and ptsd questionnaire. And I was like, okay, like whatever, but it was the first time I'd ever been honest on one of those, because I knew I was getting out well, because when you come back, yeah they're like yeah, you can't, and you know that's one thing I always tell people.
Speaker 1:I'm like that's what I always tell people like when you get back from the wars and stuff, you don't like it's tough to be honest because you just want to get out of there, you know. You just want to be like, okay, I'm gonna take. Do you have an emotional distress? Do you feel like killing yourself, like hell? No, if I say anything like that, no, no, no, no. I'm sticking around like endemo for like two more weeks or whatever else got.
Speaker 2:But when, before you get out, be as completely honest as possible yeah, oh, dude, that, yeah, that's something that I try preaching to everyone that I know is getting out. It's like, dude, this is the time you need to go to the tbi clinic. You need to start like documenting everything, because that's gonna you have all these injuries, you have all these issues like, yeah, I, I get issues. Like, yeah, I, I get it. Like, cause I did the same thing, you were hiding all of it because you didn't want you know that to affect your career. Like, cause, I had aspirations to go tier one and so, like I, you know, I wanted to take a long walk and uh, uh, all of my mental I was having all those mental health issues, but I didn't want anyone to know, cause I didn't want that to take away that opportunity. Um, even though I know they would have saw right through that and I just I'm well, you know.
Speaker 1:That's brings up another great point too is a lot of people still don't want to be honest about it, because it follows you to your net, especially if you want to go into, like contracting, you want to go into government work, you want to keep that clearance, you want to keep, you want to keep still doing cool guy stuff. But there comes a point in your life where you got to be like huh, if I'm not honest about it, I'm never going to get the help that I need.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and, and you really got to, uh, like, we have a saying like you can either have a house uh, like an empty house full of paddles or a family. And I learned, like, like you can see my paddle in the background, like when, when you either leave a team or like, or retire, or whatever, like you know, if you, if you've earned it, like, you'll get a paddle, it's decorated according to your personality and you know the, the wraps and the colors and all that stuff has meaning and and but yeah, but the thing is is a lot of people will sacrifice everything for the team, not realizing that really the person, the people that are going to be there at the end of the day, are your family or the. You know the actual, the people that you know your deployments keep going. You, you're forgotten. You know, basically, like, which is fine, because the machine has to continue moving, um, and so do you. And with that, you have to understand that, like, you need to build the foundation for the rest of your life, which really is going to be your family. And so some people look at the whole like I just want to run and gun for the rest of my life and it's like, dude, that's not, it's going to end eventually. And and if you don't set yourself up right and take care of yourself, you're, you're gonna stop Right and, like I said, that those jobs are going to continue and you're going to have nothing, you know.
Speaker 2:And so, and and that's a rude awakening that a lot of guys end up having and then end up, you know, not making it after that, you know, and so, uh, luckily, I, uh, before I burned down everything around me, um, cause that was a thing too. I, I, my entire world was on fire, and what I didn't realize was, like I was the one holding the gasoline. Can you know? I, I was completely transparent to me. I thought that just everything was falling apart and I didn't understand why all this was happening until I was actually honest on that questionnaire and they were like holy crap, dude, you, you most definitely have PTSD and you most definitely have TBI.
Speaker 2:You need to go to the TBI clinic, uh, which is called intrepid spirit for us, and uh, and so I went through a five week program where it's just five weeks of all day, they only focus on you and um, and they just document everything, and so that's, and because I had already once. They said that I was like, well, okay, I think it's time to finally be honest about everything, because I knew that I needed to step away from the community just because of the specific issues that I was having and like for me just a quick, like insight on kind of what I was going through. Like there's typically two paths that people go when they completely lose it, and that's either the implode, and that's where we have our like super high suicide rate, or they explode and they murder people you know, and unfortunately, I was going on the exploding uh route and so I was like losing it and barely able to like control myself in, uh, you know, heated situations and and things like that.
Speaker 2:And uh, and it was bad enough that when I had went to intrepid spirit and they you know I talked with their, their psychs and all that, and I was a hundred percent open they were like you think you might need to go to inpatient. And I was like, nah, I'm not doing that. Um, and they're like, okay, but it might be something you want to consider. Uh, because at that point in time, even though I knew I was getting out, I wanted one more deployment. I knew if I went to inpatient I wasn't going to be able to get that last deployment and um, and so I leave intrepid spirit, you know, I start seeing you know the psychiatrist basically every week after that and I'm working with them, um, and then that's basically when I was like okay, uh, I, I was looking for a good deployment and just with how the, the, the you know world stage was at the time and the unit I was at and the like how we were regionalized, it, just it was going to be a crappy deployment.
Speaker 2:So I was like okay, like there, there's no reason for me to stick around anymore, now it's time to like. Now I really need to like okay, I'll go to inpatient. And so I ended up going to inpatient for seven weeks, intensive outpatient for four weeks, a substance abuse program, and I'm super happy I did that, because that was the big reason I made that decision, too, was I knew I was getting out and I knew that I needed to use the resources that I had available to me while I was active duty and not try and figure it out once I got home.
Speaker 2:That's when it's too late, duty and not try and figure it out once I got home. That's when it's too late, you know. So I stepped away, did everything that I needed to do, made massive progress, but that came, you know, with its own issues. Because then I was on three SSRIs like, and one of them was like an antipsychotic which, in lesser doses, is considered an SSRI. I was having, like physical issues that I later found out were caused by the SSRIs.
Speaker 2:But however, you know, some people look at and this is important to talk about some people look at the meds as like that's going to be your solution and when it doesn't work, it's not, you know, they're, oh, it doesn't work. And then they look at therapy and then they're like that should be the solution and then when it doesn't work in and of itself, they're like, oh, that didn't work, therapy's like bullshit, and it's like no, no, no, Like you got to combine the two. The, the medication, is a supplement. It's literally supplements your therapy. It puts you in a state that allows you to do the work and and if you, you know, take the proper medications and the way that they're supposed to be taken, and you use that to supplement the, the therapy, you can make some massive progress. So it's not all bullshit. It actually works if you put in the work and uh, and that's what I did and I, um, but but it's not a perfect solution and this is where we get into the transition. I know it's like super long explanation to get.
Speaker 1:No, not at all.
Speaker 2:But, but the uh. The thing was, though, is, once I had exited, you know, like I said, I had prepared, I had, uh, an idea of what I wanted to be doing, I had the equipment to do it. I had already been mentally preparing myself to divorce, you know, that identity from being an operator to then become something more. I was doing tons of reading on how to do that Like. One of the main books that helped me was the book of five rings by uh Miyamoto Musashi, and you know he talks about, you know, being like a whole warrior. You have to learn all the arts, not just martial arts, so like learning the art of the sword, but also the guitar, and so I looked at that, as you know, delving into art more than delving into music. I play guitar, delving into, you know, like, the, the blades and stuff like that, and not just basing my identity on, like, how deadly I could be, but you know what skillsets I could bring to the table, um, as a well-rounded person, um and so, uh, but even with all of that, even with all of that preparation and this is the point of me saying, hey, I did all this stuff, I knew what I was doing, you know, but it still didn't work out very well is understanding that, just like when you go to selection or something like it doesn't matter how physically or mentally tough you are, like you're going to reach your limit. It's by design, you know, it's just, it just takes a little longer. If you're like a physical stud, you know, and, and that, yeah, and I'm not saying don't, don't show up to selection prepared like you should, um, but there there's nothing that can prepare you for it. And then it comes down to who you are as a person and your own grit to then push through. You know the rest of the stuff to. You know, to be able to accomplish, you know what, what they're asking you to do, um, and so it was the same kind of situation where I had done all the prep work, I had done all the stuff that I knew that I needed to do, and then I transition, and then all of a sudden, I run into all these issues that I was not foreseeing happening.
Speaker 2:Um, the meds stopped working. I like just completely stopped where my rage was getting out of control. You know, I had already stopped drinking, so that wasn't an issue, but now I had no, no substance to cope with and I was having to use what I learned in, you know, inpatient stuff try and cope with these things. But it was setting on so rapidly because, like I said, there's all the SSRIs, I don't know what happened. They just stopped working on so rapidly because, like I said, there's all the SSRIs, I don't know what happened. They just stopped working and I was in a situation where I was driving, a bunch of stuff happened and I won't get into it just because it's like it's just not enough time. But I was at a very heightened state and I was on the road and there was some lady in her car that cut me off and then proceeded to then flip me off and yell at me through her window.
Speaker 2:Well, in the past I had a very like. I had this thing that I felt like if someone was didn't know their place, like then I felt like I needed to be the one to show them where they stand in the world, which is immature, stupid, very risky, but that's just. That was my personality at the time and that that was one of those things that I was the growing that I had to do. And you pair that. And here's the thing when, when you go into fight or flight, which is once you, you know, ptsd can cause, hypervigilance can cause and stuff like that your frontal cortex shuts down and your amygdala is what takes over. So now your, your, your limbic system, the things that, like you know, your emotion center is what is now controlling all of your decision making, not your reason. And so when you go into fight or flight which when you have hypervigilance and all those things that I mentioned and they have a lot of studies coming out to called operator syndrome you know that that plays into this as well you don't make very good decisions when that happens, right, and so, and in my, in my particular case, because of my mindset, you know, like, for me, I don't ever do anything road rage related unless I'm like willing to die in that moment because you don't know who it is that you're going to be encountering. It's just, it's not worth it, um, you know.
Speaker 2:And so in this case I see this, you know, female, who I know can't protect herself against me, you know. So you know, doing this, having this, uh, uh, you know, expressing her, her rage on the road and um, uh, for me, I I kind of like lost it Cause I'm like you. You think that little metal box is going to protect you. You know, like I'm going to pull you over and I'm just going to rip you out of your car and because I had lost it, um, and like I said, all those things, all the stuff that had happened at the time meds not working, it was like the perfect storm. Um, I did exactly that.
Speaker 2:Like I ran her off the road, I parked in front of her, I got out of my car and I was like dude, I was done. I didn't care about anything at the time. I was gonna kill her, like I was gonna rip her out of her car and murder her right there. And and as I was walking, I look over and in my back seat is my daughter and I was like holy crap. And that completely stole all the rage and anger out of me. And then I felt like holy crap, I cannot believe this was about that. I was about to basically ruin my life and ruin someone else's life, right, because obviously that lady probably had family and stuff, and and so I got back in the car, drove away, I came home and I told my wife I was like I think I need to go back to inpatient because, like, I don't know what's going on. But I was like, but I don't know what I'm going to work on. I thought I had already solved all these trauma issues and you know stuff like that. Like I don't, I don't know what to do.
Speaker 2:And um, uh, I'm sure you're familiar with the Sean Ryan podcast. Uh, I had a buddy, um, one of the guys that was in my company went to courses with them and stuff, and uh, we were friends. His name is prime um. He was on um the sean ryan podcast and you know he's had his own set of trauma, both during the military and um prior, and one of the things that they talked about that the commonality they both had was that they'd use psychedelics, they'd, uh, use dmt, and that was like made a massive difference. And because I had already, I felt like I a massive difference.
Speaker 2:And because I had already, I felt like I had already done the work, like I had already gone impatient and all these things, and now I'm presented with this problem that I don't know how to solve. I was like I don't know where else to turn. I've done all the steps, you know, like, what else am I supposed to do. So I hit up prime and I was like dude, this is everything I've done, I'm losing it. Man. Hit up prime and I was like dude, this is everything I've done, I'm losing it. Man, like I'm about to make bad decisions. I was like I don't want to um and uh and I don't want to turn to substances.
Speaker 2:You know, like uh, because one of the meds like I was saying it, like I was having major side effects from it in the past was I was like collapsing. I was having like crazy dizzy spell, confusion, convulsing. The va couldn't figure out what was going on until I uh, cause I was still the wet, meds weren't working, but I was still taking them. Um, because I didn't want to just stop cold Turkey. I hit up uh, prime and uh and I'm, I'm like dude, I, I, you know, I heard you and Sean Ryan. You guys both had taken DMT.
Speaker 2:It made massive difference. Like I, like I, if you can hook me up with whoever, it is, like I need to do something, something needs to happen. And he's like I got you. And so he, uh, he set me up and um, uh, what's it called? Uh, uh, you know, to kind of fast forward to having that experience, and that's a whole nother conversation in and of itself, but it made I mean, I can't even tell you the impact that they had in a positive way for me. And again, and even DMT is not, it's not a magic pill, it's not this thing that you do and then you're fixed. It is a tool you can use and then, when you put in the work after it can have, it can just change your life. And so, um, you know, I, uh, I mean it, it did, it changed my life and the.
Speaker 2:The biggest thing I think I gained from that outside of like, basically like what felt like 10 years of therapy in like 20 minutes, um, was, uh, an ego death, like I, it was, I would, I'm, I would, back then I probably one of the more arrogant people you would ever meet, you know, and um, and so I had an ego death and I had been trying, during my while I was active duty, to try and uh find God, find religion, or I thought I was trying to find a religion, but really what I was looking for was a relationship with God and um, and the thing is, is there's going to be people that see this, that know me from my past and hear me say that I found Christ and they're going to be like what Tim finding like what Like? People thought that I was like a literal heathen at one point because I was very into like the Viking, like all my tattoos are like in nature and stuff, and you know, and I was very into the Viking mythology, so people thought I actually believed in the gods.
Speaker 2:you know, and to be honest, I looked into it because I was looking for some sort of moral code to follow and I just couldn't get on board with it. But I was also looking into Christianity and there was just, I just couldn't get on board with it, um but uh. But was also looking into Christianity and there was just, I just could not make the leap of belief and I realized that the the thing I was missing was, uh, or the thing that I had too much of was pride. I couldn't surrender myself to something bigger than myself. I felt like I needed to be the one that did everything, which is crazy to think about, because even in the soft community, when you're doing CQB, like you do not go into a room by yourself. Under no circumstances do you enter a room by yourself, unless it is like there is absolutely no other, no other choice. But if you have a team with you, you hold on whatever it is that you're trying to enter that you don't have enough support for, and you call for support and you wait for that squeeze and when you get that squeeze then you go in as like either a pair or the team or whatever the stack and everyone's fine with that. That makes total sense to everyone. But then everyone thinks that you can't ask for support when it comes to emotional or mental stability. You know it's like how does that not translate?
Speaker 2:You know so I felt I was the same way and you know now I know that that the the, the difference, just like allowing Christ and or God to, you know, basically run my life, which I shouldn't say that like I and what I don't mean is that I just sit in a corner and then everything just falls into place and everything happens. I put in the work, but to give, give all my worries and you know, stuff like that to to God and not, um, try and control everything myself, has just made an incredible difference in my life and I and I I attribute that to DMT from having that ego death, because with that came a lot of other benefits that helped me in my transition when it came to getting my shit together Like dude. Now I'm not on any medications None and I'm way more regulated with my emotions and stuff than I've ever been. I am healthy, both physically, mentally and now spiritually.
Speaker 2:And again, I'm not saying that DMT is a magic pill. It is definitely something that takes a lot of. It takes a lot of work. After you have to work on yourself, you need to do like trust the process and do the work and it can. It can be very beneficial. Uh, and it was for me.
Speaker 1:How did you like? You know that's I really do. That's one of the conversation I really want to have, Not today. I want to get you and I want to get two or three other people who have experience with DMT, including someone who facilitates it, and I think that'd be a great discussion to have, because we need something else other than SRIs and other than because listen, man, I've been a ton of different counselors over the year years and and I hit a certain point and I'm like, huh, you know, if you go through your employment assistance program and stuff, they'll give you some 22-year-old kid who's just trying to, like, you know, check a block. But that DMT is definitely something I want to talk about.
Speaker 1:You bring up the spiritualization.
Speaker 1:Listen, I was like looking around the room as we're talking, it's like I still have my little Bible from 1993, from when I went to basic training, Cause that's one thing you know, the troops and soldiers and sailors and airmen and Marines and everything is at some point you're going to figure out. You need to reach out for something and, whatever God that may be, or whatever higher being that may be, or whatever, At some point 99% of the people reach out. The biggest thing you brought up there and I love this saying I think you need to make it a t-shirt is ego death, Because you know what man I see it all the time. Listen, if I became vet bro number one, ex-ved rigid riot act on one side of their left side or whatever side, I could have a million followers tomorrow if that was my identity, if I used my ego to build this like rampant fan base. But when you take responsibility for who you are and what your real identity is and you get rid of that ego, I think that's your, that's your spiritual awakening right there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, I totally agree with that and I, and I hope that you know, not everyone will have access to DMT and stuff but really that that is not something that's required. I mean it's something that if you, you know, look into it and it's something that you, not something that's required. I mean it's something that if you, you know, look into it and it's something that you actually want, that you, you can let go, like it doesn't require a substance to have an ego death. It's a, it's a choice. You, I mean, you just happen to make the choice while you're under and in your, your journey, I guess, with DMT. But it is a choice and it's something that can be made consciously.
Speaker 2:You just need to, you just need to, you just need to want it. You need to be prepared for it. Um, and I mean, just like you know, when you, you know, share, uh, your experience, whether it's religious or what you know. Um, you know, I, like I had a friend, zach actually, who was very, very um, I don't want to say religious, but had a very good relationship, strong relationship with God and he tried, you know, spreading the gospel to me for a very long time and and I just wasn't prepared for it. So you can have the ego death as long as you actually want it and you're prepared to do the work and to move forward.
Speaker 1:You brought up something that's great. If you think of your ego as alcoholism, if you think of your ego as alcoholism unless you want machine that doesn't need anything or anybody, and that you need these deployments, you need this adrenaline, you need this action, because you've been there, you've done that. But until you get rid of that ego and like ego death, you really can't embrace anything else. It's almost like it's almost like a 12 step ego, you know.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, I totally agree with that, Like I mean that that that's one of the more useless things, that and don't get me wrong I still have plenty of ego, unfortunately, Um, and that's something I'm working on.
Speaker 1:So it doesn't we all do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm not like some Zen master, now you know.
Speaker 1:but two years. I'm going to, uh, I'm going to hit you up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, then I'll, then I'll be, uh, I'll be floating in the screen instead of sitting in my chair.
Speaker 2:Uh, but uh, but absolutely, man, it's, it's, it's a, it's a choice, but it's gotta be something that you're ready for. And actually, when you bring up the whole and you know alcoholism and stuff, um, like basically, uh, and this is something I would recommend too, and this is something that can actually help you start moving towards that path. Jordan Peterson is a massive influence to me and one of the things that helped me there like the power of writing is incredible. I mean it literally concretizes a lot of your, your thought processes, all these like thoughts and things that you may like think you have a good grip on, but they're just kind of floating around in your head and this kind of puts it all together and allows you to make sense of it. And and in this case, like the way with when you look at like alcoholism, really what that is is cause you, I mean you look at an alcoholic and I and I've seen it before, I've seen it in myself, I've seen it in my family Um, the alcohol becomes more important than, like the more the most important things in life.
Speaker 2:And, uh, and you're like you can see this guy literally destroying his life and you're like, how can you keep drinking? Like, how does that make sense? And it's literally a mechanism in the brain that, like, you have, like your pain and pleasure, and alcohol it's not. It's not the alcohol that's the problem, it's the consequences, right? So your brain looks at the alcohol and it's part of your, your pleasure center and that's how it categorizes it. So to get that pleasure, you're willing to suffer the consequences and typically what ends up happening is you have to have that like rock bottom experience, right, that's how you have the.
Speaker 2:The guy that was an alcoholic for 20 years and then doesn't touch a drop for the rest of his life that mechanism switches when you have that rock bottom experience, um, uh, uh, basically becomes categorized in the pain, and then you want to avoid it, you don't want anything to do with it anymore, and so not to say there's no data to suggest this, but, um, I've heard, uh, I want to say I've heard Jordan talk about it. Um, and then also I did a lot of thinking about it but Jordan's self-authoring program, he has a past, present and future authoring program and basically what that helps you do is articulate a hell that you want to run away from and then a heaven that you want to run towards Right. And then it and it walks. You don't even have to be a good writer, you don't have to be good at writing at all.
Speaker 2:It walks you through every part of the process and but what that does is it concretizes that, that image of what the worst possible, what is your rock bottom. It forces you to articulate that and once that actually becomes a thing in your mind and you understand that that's a reality especially when you're in a situation like me where you're basically living it that switch can happen, because it's like a smaller, a less intense version of that switch happening. It doesn't happen all the time, but it's something that can move you in that direction. So I 100% recommend people to use that. Even if you don't know how to write or you suck at writing or whatever walks you through it, it helps really give you a nice, uh, solid image, like a map of this is where I am, this is where I'm going. You know, just like in selections like this, where I am, this where I'm going. You know like so it's, it's it. It just articulates that for you and kind of gets you, sets you on that path and but I guess, move into like the, the knife stuff.
Speaker 1:Well, you know, I get to talk about the knife thing, cause I was just, I was trying to figure out how we linked up and I know we linked up through a mutual friend. But I was looking at your, your IG page, and I'm like I paint you in 2002, 2022 about one of your knives.
Speaker 2:So I mean, yeah, I must have, because I was like hey, this is awesome.
Speaker 1:it doesn't show what image it was, but oh gotcha, I tell you, man, knives, I just I, there's just something about a solid blade man, yeah, and I know, and to me it's like because of your background and because of your passion, I I feel like there's. It's just different. When you get into blades, I think it's a lot different because to me, blades are a work of art. They're absolutely a work of art. I love mass-produced blades. They have their own utility, but when it comes to that piece of art, when it comes to something you want to put on your kit or something you just want to pass down generations, or something, that's just bad-ass. I love a good blade man. And it's so weird to go from a transition from the topics we just went to to this. But it is part of the transition, man, it's part of your new identity, it's your new definition.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So let's get into that man.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so, like, like I said it kind of, I kind of fell into it, and it became an outlet for me to deal with a lot of the issues that I was having in the past, and uh, and the thing was, though, is, um, you know, I was really familiar like we get issued specific things, you know, uh, and the. The issue with that well, no pun intended is that a lot of these guys that are, you know, uh, issuing out the gear or dictating what we get, or guys in the g7 that haven't been on a team for like 20 years or whatever, and so, I mean, we literally get this massive bag called spear gear, and it's like hundreds of pouches. I didn't. I used like maybe two of them, because they all sucked and they were things that we didn't need, and so I had this massive bag that just sat in this closet, and then I had to purchase a lot of my own gear, and, and the same thing was with the knives. Like we have a.
Speaker 2:We got issued, at one point, a dagger called the sock P dagger. Nothing wrong with the dagger itself. The issue, though, is daggers are great for penetrating people, right, and not so great for EDC tasks, and in my entire career, like I've never used a knife on anyone and I like I only know two people that have stories of stuff like that, and so this kit, this knife, just sits on a sat on people's kit, just never got used and and so I wanted to solve that problem. And obviously I'd already had a history, and you know, starting to make knives and stuff, and so once I, you know, was an instructor, then I was like, okay, I want to solve this problem, I want to make a kit knife. You know, that serves the same purposes as the SOC P dagger did, because the SOC P dagger is a dagger that's used in our CQB, martial art called SOC P, martial art called sock P, and I forget what it stands for at the top of my head right now Um, but uh, but basically it's, you know, while while you're clearing a room and stuff like that, like if someone wraps you up, like what are you going to do? And these are the techniques that we teach in sock P, and the dagger is a big part of that. So I wanted to make a blade that could still be used within the martial art sock P, but then allowed us to actually use it for everyday tasks and sock P, but then allowed us to actually use it for everyday tasks, and that's where, like, actually this, this right here, this model right here, this is called the Hoogan and that's actually my most popular knife and that's that's where that was born.
Speaker 2:And and just having experienced, you know, using knives in different situations and especially being the guy that, like at the time when I was on a team, I wasn't a knife maker, I treated knives like shit, like I was I was the guy that, like I just I had a high carbon blade, didn't know what that meant threw it in my, you know, uh, my gun case and it got shipped over, you know, to wherever we're deploying and then I take it out and it's just this big piece of rust. I'm like what the heck? How did this happen? You know, the guy, that using knives as, like you know, screwdrivers and stuff, stuff that would make me cringe now, um, you know, and so, just over time, just beating up knives and a lot of different environments, like I started learning like what a good night was, like what it was that I needed, like as far as a kit knife for survival, you know, for you know things for bigger tasks, not that I would carry something like a kukri on me, um, but you know, for you know things for bigger tasks, not that I would carry something like a kukri on me, um, but you know, but I, I started realizing that each knife should have a use, and the more uses a singular knife has, the worse it's going to be. Like us, like you know, like a jack-of-all-trades master not going to do anything great, um, and it's just going to sit on your kit because it can't, because it sucks at everything, um, so, uh, so yeah, just through that experience, I started developing knives.
Speaker 2:That then started becoming pretty popular, like on the team and uh, or on the teams and uh, and I went from forging them, you know, and I, I still do lots of forging and stuff, but like, this particular blade is like a production knife for me. Now, I started forging them. People wanted them faster than I could forge them and it's, that's a very difficult knife to forge, um. Then I started doing stock removal to to make them more rapidly, but it was. I still couldn't make them fast enough, um, and so then I started getting water jetted um to where basically it comes to me, cut out in the shape it's supposed to be, and then I do the grinding of the bevel, the heat treat and all the other stuff you would normally do, um, and then that that brand kind of took off.
Speaker 2:I call it the raven series and it's like my line of tactical knives and um, and they just sold extremely well, actually way better than a lot of my forge pieces, which is, uh, you know, unfortunate, because that's what I enjoy doing are the more complex pieces like mosaic, damascus and integrals, and you know things like this and um, and this brings up what I was telling you from before, that that website, ridge runner, ridge runner, bladescom. Um, they, they became interested in my blades and um, and I actually just partner with them uh, recently, and so I encourage everyone to go, uh, check out their website because they have massive brands there. They, they have my, uh, my, like a huge mentor of mine, jason Knight. He's a master Smith, very famous blade Smith.
Speaker 2:Um, uh, they have, you know, things like Microtech, uh, winkler, uh, spyderco, so they have like the production stuff, uh, well, winkler is a little bit more on the custom side, but um, uh, and then now they have me and they have a bunch of bushcraft and hunting uh brands and stuff there too. Um, so it's it's a pretty robust website that is now bringing on a lot of high level makers Not to say that I'm in that category, but like people like Jason Knight.
Speaker 1:Like I said, and and because I'm looking at the website right now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's a lot of good stuff.
Speaker 1:There goes my hey, I'm not. I'm getting a retirement check now, man, I can't be buying all these knives, yeah.
Speaker 2:And, dude, it's only going to get better too, because, uh and this is maybe a conversation for another time, but uh, you know, the social media platforms are just crushing knife makers right now crushing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you were telling me about that yeah, and you think I know that I know my firearms.
Speaker 1:Whenever I do firearms videos, it's. It's just, it's incredible, man, how, how throttled it gets. Believe me, because, like I love sports shooting, I love it, I love competition, I love teaching people how to shoot. I I love coaching people. But you put up some videos. I'm not saying anything about shooting someone else. I'm saying we're putting bullets on paper and it's like throttle, but I didn't realize it was getting down to the knife makers now oh, dude, it's even crazier.
Speaker 2:Man's the, the leather workers that make the sheaths, are getting silenced or getting diminished, their accounts getting diminished. Um, the steel producers they're not even showing knives, they're just showing metal that knife makers use and they're getting throttled. It's ridiculous. And and here and here's the crazy part about it, and of course it's totally, you know, falls in line with you know just how things are, which is bullshit. But I mean, you got Mark Zuckerberg that will release videos of himself forging Right, which I've had some of my posts of just the hammer and the steel getting. We'll post a thing of him doing it and obviously it doesn't get throttled, gets spread around, yeah. And then he'll post another video of him using the sword that he helped forge and cutting to Tommy mats with it, and it's totally fine.
Speaker 2:And then my, my knives will get hit and throttled for sexual content, which doesn't make any sense. And then, like you know, obviously Instagram is famous for just pushing out, basically, pornography, you know, and it's like they will promote those accounts. Yet They'll throttle mine and hit me with sexual guideline content, like, or I mean a sexual content, guideline infractions, and I'm like, how does that even make sense? Like I appreciate that you say that my knives are so sexy that you can't show them, but at the same time, it's like dude, you're being ridiculous, like this is crazy. And the knife making community has actually reached out to meta, had actual conversations like hey, this doesn't make sense. Can you explain your guidelines? Can you tell us what we need to do? Like how is it that? Because this is the livelihood of a lot of people- like majority of knife makers.
Speaker 2:They sell through social media. Now that's there, and I, and I understand that social media is not a like, it's not a free marketing platform right, that's not the purpose of it. But at the same time, like these, these guys are being throttled for reasons that don't make sense and when you know, I almost wonder, like what, what could be the next outlet?
Speaker 1:because they've tried all these different, all these different things. Like for my writing, 99 of times I use substack and you know, but trying to build an audience off of that is tough because that's more, like you know, for me it's articles. You could do podcasts on our stuff. But they try to find the right outlet because, you're right, it's it's articles. You could do podcasts on our stuff. But they try to find the right outlet Because, you're right, it's not a free, market-based thing.
Speaker 1:But if you look at the content on there and you look at, to me it's like look, I want to look at knives, I love looking at knives. To me it's like some people like looking at vacation properties, they look like looking at horses or whatever. I like to look at knives. I like at horses or whatever. I like to look at knives, I like to look at guns, I like to learn things. That's what I use social media for. But the throttle, the way they're throttling some of those things, it's almost like well, no, it's, it's less than that, it's algorithms and trying to, and they see certain keywords and now it's like they don't even just see the words themselves. They just need to see something in a picture and they. That's not good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and the technology is getting better where they can identify things within videos, cause I was doing stuff where I would start the video with my my emblem, pan out to the knife and then, at the end of it, pan back into my emblem so that, like my thumbnail, everything wouldn't show the knife, and that worked a little bit but then obviously didn't work later. But to to talk about like a platform that I think is the next Instagram for knife makers is X and like, unfortunately, right now, because knife makers are going over there in droves right now wants to look at custom knives. Yes, you can still see them on instagram and stuff because they're, you know they're still around, um on instagram, but go, you need to make an x account because that's going to be the next big hot spot for custom knives because all the makers are going over there because they can't sell anything. Like we're talking dudes with like 40 000 followers on instagram only getting like hundreds of likes on some of their stuff because they're being throttled so bad. Um, so like right now it's kind of like the ground floor, uh, you know, like if you go to X as a knife maker, um, in the, in the sense that not a lot of people on it on X don't know that the custom knife makers are there, so that that's the.
Speaker 2:That's the issue right now. But a lot of people are going there. I'm posting my stuff there. I don't post. Yeah, I'm looking at it.
Speaker 1:Right now I'm looking at some of these new blades you got out too, man, so if you go to, let me try this, let me see if I still got it. Oscar Uniform, romeo. Oscar Bravo, oscar Romeo, oscar Sierra, underscore Foxtrot, duxrat, oscar Romeo, golf, echo, ouroboros, underscore Forge. You can find your blades and look, it's so easy. You can come on here. You can just see everything. Oh man, you're going to kill me. I'm going to buy some of this crap too. Thanks, brent.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and dude Elon is starting to change the platform to where you can have long-form content. You can make basically content you can make. Basically. It's going to be youtube. It's becoming more user friendly for pictures and posting pictures. It's going to quickly overtake instagram and if you're a knife maker and you haven't diversified the platforms, that you're going on because knife makers are also on reddit, but it's not as yeah, right, it's kind of tough too exactly like you know that's.
Speaker 1:That's one thing I like about x because I try threads, but x I know when I go there like, so I use it for different things. So, like I'll use X for, like, any of my TV appearances and articles and stuff like that, anything where I do like author stuff. But I might actually start using this now, now that it's this type of platform for, like my, my shooting videos, for my other videos that have to do with, like you know, everyday carrier coaching or, you know, basic firearms and stuff like that. I might just start, you know, because now I'm looking at it, I'm actually being able to see your content.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and the and some people. Their complaint might be that, uh, you know you go to X and there's all these like super crazy videos and stuff that are constantly in your feed, but you can, you can, uh, what would you say? Uh, curate that.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, I do that all the time. I don't see anything really at mine except the people I follow.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:Something's here and there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it's it's, it's manageable, it takes, it's in the process of improving. So that's why I'm saying it's like the ground floor. So things are improving. But just for those out there that want to start looking at custom knives, just understand that that's, that's going to be the place, that's going to be the next Instagram. And the sooner you go over there and start following knife makers, the sooner that that transition can happen. Because if you're looking for specific, you know types of knives. It's it's near impossible now to find new makers on Instagram because of throttling. So if your goal is to find custom knives, go to that.
Speaker 1:And it's weird. I've been following you since 2022, at least on IG, and I hardly ever see your content.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, doesn't surprise me, and because I stopped, I stopped. The first time I got throttled. I made a second Instagram account in case they shut down my first one, and then and told everyone go follow me there, just in case. The second time it happened, I made an X account but wasn't really using it. And then the third time it happened, where they hit everyone the leather makers, the steel providers like it was just. It was crazy.
Speaker 2:That's when I was like, all right, dude like I, I have tried playing your game for three or four years now and I've been doing everything that you've been asking me to do and you're still throttling me and you can't. You can't even give me a reason Like because, like I said, there, there have been makers that have reached out to the company themselves and asked them like, what do you want us to do? And they're like basically the response that comes back is you got to get more creative about how you show your knives, and it's like, wait, what?
Speaker 1:that makes no sense. Listen, you have certain people want to view things a certain way, and to well, you got to change. It's just not authentic and you don't want to.
Speaker 1:And, man, I hate fake bullshit yeah I hate fake people and I hate the content creators who are just you know larp, you know listen, you want to larp and stuff like that. It's cool, but in order to to find it, it shouldn't be that big of a deal. She'd be like okay, tim's got this blade going on this month he's gonna do a drop. You can't mention. If you're doing a raffle, you gotta say it's a waffle. You can't do donations and this, and that it's just. You're right. I think I'm gonna have to check out x man for more content yeah, no, absolutely, and I just followed you, so everybody out there followed dr jason piccolo on x.
Speaker 1:Heck, yeah, I still call twitter, but x yeah, yeah, I, I did.
Speaker 2:I catch myself all the time calling it twitter, but um well twim, well Twim.
Speaker 1:I mean Twim now I'm talking to Twim cause I'm thinking Twitter. I think we need to take a trip out to North Carolina and check out some knives. Don't ask me, I was just looking at the um the Ridge runner blade and that's like kind of like their headquarters in North Carolina. But listen, we definitely need to do. I do want to have more conversations, especially about mental health, about transition, definitely more content about blades, and definitely want to keep talking brother.
Speaker 2:Yeah, same here, man, I've enjoyed it.
Speaker 1:There's the end recording.
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