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The Protectors® Podcast
Welcome to The Protectors® Podcast, where the valor meets the storyteller. Hosted by Jason Piccolo, a seasoned veteran and retired special agent, this series is a must-listen for anyone intrigued by the courage and tales of those who pledge to protect us. Beyond the front-line stories of bravery and dedication, this podcast goes a step further, weaving in the perspectives of those who bolster and narrate the protector's journey—featuring a remarkable lineup including New York Times Best Sellers and acclaimed Hollywood actors.
The Protectors® Podcast offers a diverse array of voices, from those who wear the uniform to the authors and entertainers who amplify their stories. It's a unique blend that highlights not only the raw realities faced by our protectors but also how their sacrifices inspire the narratives we cherish in literature and film. Each episode is a testament to the interconnected worlds of service and support, bringing listeners an unmatched depth of insight.
Dr. Jason Piccolo is a retired federal agent, former U.S. Army Infantry Captain (Iraq 2006), and author.
Past Guests Include:- Sean Patrick Flanery - Andrews & Wilson- Mark Greaney- Stephen Hunter- Remi Adeleke - Florent Groberg - Clint Emerson - Travis Mills
The Protectors® Podcast
501 | Taylor Moore | Former CIA | Author | Narrating Real Life and Fiction
What drives someone to join the CIA after 9/11, and how does their sense of duty shape their journey? Tune in as we welcome back author Taylor Moore to the Protectors Podcast, with co-host Gene O'Neill. We uncover the fascinating motivations and impactful experiences behind joining such an agency, sharing emotional reflections and highlighting the profound camaraderie between CIA operatives and military personnel. Taylor provides a glimpse into his personal story, revealing how his unfulfilled desire to serve in the military found a new path post-9/11 with the CIA, bringing a deep sense of purpose and duty to his role.
Make sure to check out Jason on IG @drjasonpiccolo
Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh oh. Sometimes you just got hit record. Hey, welcome to the protectors podcast. We are back again. I could probably call him legendary author, Taylor Moore. I think once you hit that three to four book range, you are now legendary and internationally renowned, and we're joined by my excellent co-host, Gene O'Neill. What's going on, guys?
Speaker 2:Not much, man. Glad to be here, glad to be back.
Speaker 1:And I'm glad to have you back on here because you know, now you have me addicted to this damn series, especially the audible. I'm right, I have so many audible books right now. Yeah, it's like a toss-up between um, this one.
Speaker 2:I'm actually listening to um jeez ricochet right now, oh yeah yeah, um, so jeremy, author is the uh, is the the guy that does the books? And every time I you know, when I, when I write these books, I can't. I can never read them again because I'm sick of them, but I can listen to them again because Jeremy is so good. And every time I finish a book I literally immediately get you know online. I go to my editor. I was like make sure you get this guy again, because he's so good. He's so good at those voices and he's so amazing.
Speaker 2:I don't know how he does it this so good at those voices and he's so amazing. I don't know how he does it. This is such a talent. People think, okay, well, these guys are voice actor, whatever. But to be able to remember and make those subtle distinctions between all those characters just blows my mind. So so for those out there that are, that are listening, that don't have time to read or aren't big readers, the audible versions are incredible you know, with these audible versions I feel like I'm in a movie, yeah, so I'm like I listen to them and you do you.
Speaker 1:You get very akin to different, like um, audible books and and narrators, and you want to just be like, hey, you know, I want anything that they're doing. You know, ray porter's another one. It's like that too. You listen to him and it's like boom.
Speaker 2:I gotta you know yeah, well, ray porter, yeah, he's one of the famous ones, but there's there's people that these, these narrators just have fans, not of these, of the author, of the actual narrator, but they can make or break a book, and I've talked to some author friends who have tried different things, and one doesn't sell as well, and and the bottom line is the, you know the, the editor of the uh, you know the reader, just wasn't quite as good and so, no, you want the best that you can get, but, like I said, every time Jeremy knocks it out of the park.
Speaker 1:There's a certain series on TV right now. That's really good, but the narrator for that series and I'm not going to say the series, you could probably figure it out I just can't. I just can't with it. I want to listen to the series. So bad because I travel so much, I drive so much. That's pretty much the only time I can ingest books. It's like, please something different. Now Michael Connelly went the other way. He got Titus Welliver, which is great for the Connelly books. So, you have the actor of Vosh actually doing it.
Speaker 2:That's pretty amazing. Yeah Well, hopefully we'll have an actor playing Garrett Cole someday. Maybe he'll want to do it.
Speaker 1:We definitely need that. I think that'd be a great series man.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, this has been interesting. Yeah, when the series first came out, I optioned it to Universal. Peacock was interested at the time and so I'd optioned it for a year and it got around that full year and, uh, I think they made a pitch. It was kind of when all the turmoil it was before, it was pre um, it was pre-strike, and then uh, but it was when everybody was laying off like left and right hollywood, and so they kind of got back or like that and happened. So I was, I was disappointed, um, but now I have, um, a director attached, uh, to the series.
Speaker 2:I won't get into it yet, I won't give any details, but it's somebody who's done some pretty cool things and potentially a showrunner who has done a really big uh tv series, potentially. It hasn't happened yet, but we're we're teetering on that, that balance, so, um. So I've got pieces of the puzzle, you, but we're, we're teetering on that, that balance, so, um. So I've got pieces of the puzzle. You know, we're putting it all together if you can get the. You know a few of those others and we've got have interested producers that could produce. So it's a matter of us getting those, those pieces together and then this person coming on board, so hopefully it would be a series, uh, or potentially a movie we'll see.
Speaker 3:See, it is incredibly visually appealing. The way you write is very visually appealing, and I was talking with Jason about this earlier. I really love the way that you write landscape, because you write landscape as a character.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:You feel like you're there In the beginning of Downrangerange. While I'm reading it, I could feel the when he was in afghanistan. I could feel the grit in between my collar and and and and me when he was laying in the dirt. You, you write landscape not from the point of view of someone who just drove through it, but you write it as someone who really loves that country and appreciates it for what it is.
Speaker 2:Well, well, thanks for for noticing that Cause I take a great pain to to really try to bring you know, uh, bring the reader into that experience. And it's funny you mentioned that cause. Actually, two summers ago up at Thriller Fest, uh, they asked me to teach a class called your Setting as a Character, and somebody apparently had that same opinion that I write really good settings to the point where you feel like you. I don't know that, you know it. But I guess what's been sort of unusual for me is that I've had people from all over the country sort of unusual for me is that I've had people from all over the country. I've had people from other countries write to me and say I really want to visit the Texas Panhandle or, you know, visit the high plains, and I always kind of laughed at myself because I'm thinking, man, every time I write a story it's like the. You know, there's like a some kind of a blizzard or, you know, wildfires or something horrible is taking place there, but I guess it's appealing enough that it's interesting to people where they want to come see it. So I always appreciate it because I work really hard to do that. But you know, even like you mentioned Afghanistan. That's another one. I want people to feel what the character is feeling, so I really try to get people into the shoes of whoever I'm writing about at that particular time, and so no thanks for taking note of that. And you know you mentioned, of course, um, uh, the Texas high plains. I live here, so that was something.
Speaker 2:When I got out of you know, working in Intel and and and all that, I ended up working as an oil and gas land man up here. So, um, I've been through some of those blizzards. You know I experienced them firsthand, cause I was out there working. You know, we're trying to get you know rigs to a certain spot or whatever, and uh, so that that cold weather that I write about in the book, sometimes I've I've literally.
Speaker 2:I remember going out with with surveyors to stake a well and and uh, and I can't remember exactly what it was, but it was we were literally in a blizzard and I remember I was in one of those John Deere Gators and had no windshield and we were going north and there's places where we are in the panhandle, where you know some of it's rolling, some of it's, you know, uh, cliffs and then, but this where I was was just flat and uh, and downrange. I think you know there's the old joke. I said there's nothing between here and the north pole but a bob wire fence, you know, and and so, uh, I was in one of those spots and so we're driving in this, no windshield wind coming this way at about 40 miles an hour, and it was about negative whatever. And I remember thinking like if somebody just kicked me off of this john derr gator, right now, I that would be it for me, I would just kind of huddle into a ball, and that would be it, you know I'd be.
Speaker 2:You know, just a frozen, uh corkset on the tundra there, but uh, but no, I've experienced the heat, the wind, the heat, the, you know, the cold, um, the floods, uh, that I write about. And what book is that ricochet, you know so. So everything that I write about I've experienced in some form or fashion is the panhandle tourism board kicking back on this or are you?
Speaker 3:are you is? Is that? Is that an angle to monetize the series you know?
Speaker 2:the people. All the restaurants that I use in the book are all real places.
Speaker 2:And so there is one guy that owns a couple of those restaurants who's been great. He loves it because I always use like the Stumbling Goat or you know something like that, and so I know people when I write the Stumbling Goat, people think there's no way that that's a real. It's a real restaurant bar. So I always do a few scenes there and I'll go do book signings there and the catalog exchange which is in downrange is a great restaurant. I'm by the same guy and all these places are just beyond cool. So, yeah, he loves it because, you know, obviously I'm setting there. So no, it's, it's, it is it doesn't go without some appreciation.
Speaker 3:I guess you'd say there aren't a whole lot of authors who are capable of that. If you're familiar with Lawrence Block, who wrote the Matt Scudder series for years, every with a with a with a similar end state to it, where you feel like, if I know, if I park at this corner and I look to the right, the restaurant is there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, and that's exactly. I think it'd be fun. Well, my first editor was David Highfield, you know, legend in the business. He's since retired but he's one of the guys that, oh man, was just great. But I remember talking to him when we started this thing and he said I think people are going to travel to Canadian, texas, just to see if this really exists. I said, man, it absolutely does Like exactly how I described. It is exactly how it is.
Speaker 2:And I always tell people because of course I'll go do book signings in Canadian and everybody's trying to figure out who the characters are in the book and I say I'll never tell. I'll never tell you know who, you know who, I know that is this character, but, but people have a lot of fun with that. But what I always say, my center of gravity, is the coal ranch, and, and that's the only thing that's sort of made up, but it actually is a real place that in my mind I know where it is and it's where it's located. But you know, I I changed the name. The other thing I do change the names on and and sort of my, my, my rule of thumb is that if I say something bad about a place, um, I'll make up a name, um. But even some of the gas stations in there are real, but I think was it the first one.
Speaker 2:I think I called it the Flying Bandit or something, instead of the Flying J, because, well, it ended up not mattering. But I ended up having a scene where people bought drugs, because it's a big drug stop and there was some prostitution and all kinds of stuff going on, and so I didn't want to disparage a real company, even though it probably does go on. I didn't want to disparage the company just because you know why. So I just made up a name for it. So I always say, if there's something bad, I'll make up a fake name, but if it's good, you know, then I'll I'll use the real name. Like, anytime I can use a real name, I'll use it.
Speaker 1:Your Rolodex of names as well. I mean, who's the bad guy? Is this something you asked from when you were in high school?
Speaker 2:You're like I don't know that guy. Yeah, you know, I'll tell you a funny story about that. I had some placeholders, name you know, names that were some of the CIA people, that were real names, of real people that I knew, and and I was like, oh, I'll just use them as a placeholder because it is kind of who I'm thinking of, so the character isn't the real character, but they were kind of like who I had in mind and and so I ended up changing them later. And I remember my agent at the time when he was looking at the manuscript was like no, no, no, they were better.
Speaker 2:They were better. Like, change them back, change them back. So I'm because, um, yeah, they were. They were kind of based on real people, so I just used them as placeholder names until I changed it, but I ended up changing it back.
Speaker 1:So you know, that's the one thing about this crop of authors that have come out like post nine 11 is there's so much more experience in the writing that you can use people, you can use the experiences If had the locations You're not obviously not the secretive TTPs, techniques, techniques, procedures, stuff like that but the overall having the experience, rather than just being an academic born author. You know about you and your bio is something. One of the things you said was someone asked if why you joined the CIA and it was like you had a sense of adventure. But I, like I tend to believe that people join agencies like that because they don't have just a sense of adventure, they have a sense of duty and a sense of service.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you know, as a veteran, yeah, it's great that I joined the service. Not everybody joins a service to serve. They serve for other reasons. But when you take the deferred step to join an agency where you never know where your life or limb is going to be lost, you're serving the country. So yeah, there's adventure in there, but you're also serving.
Speaker 1:So, that's the one thing I wanted to. You know, backtrack into. It was like with the agency aspect of this. You did do your service, you did have these experiences and now shows in your, in your writing. But you have to go back and you might have to miss it. I can imagine you'd miss it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's, um, it's an interesting thing Everything you said. So back, you know, just kind of to backtrack, you know that sense of duty. I didn't serve in the military and I always wanted to. That was one, one thing I really wanted to do and it just sort of didn't. I never want to make excuses because people uh found a way to do what I wanted to do, um, but it just didn't work out, if you know what I mean. So, um, that was one, one regret I have in, you know, in life, um, you know, we have these reoccurring dreams. I think most people have the one where, like, it's the last day of school, you're in your finals and somehow you didn't study. For you know, I still have that one, but one I always wanted to you know, give it a shot at some sort of special operations.
Speaker 2:And that was one of the things I wanted to do in high school and to this day I have a dream, probably three times a year, that I have an opportunity to try out for SEALs or special forces or whatever. And I'm my age now and somebody says you can do this right now. Do you want to do it? I'm like I'm an old guy, I haven't trained, I haven't done anything. This is your shot, do you want to do it?
Speaker 2:So I always had that sense of duty and wanting to serve and wanted to test myself. I think you bring out a good point. After 9-11. That sort of general sense of duty was sort of magnified by, you know, came after, not you know pretty quickly after 9-11 and after, you know, the war in Iraq and all that. So to kind of jump right in.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, you're right, it wasn't just the sort of and not to take away from anyone who might have been, you know, in the agency in the 90s. You know things happen, but not to the level of it did from 2001 and you know, the next 20 years or so. I mean, yeah, that experience you had and I told people all the time. I said you know it's funny that the agency there was just so much going on at that time. You got a lot of experience because it wasn't like you're kind of sitting around waiting for something. There was so much to do. It was like I need a volunteer, I need a volunteer to do something, and so if you wanted to go to a war zone or do whatever you wanted to do, uh, you had that opportunity to get out there and do that.
Speaker 1:You know, speaking of the agency, you know I have one of my best friends that was retired and he was wherever we go anywhere I get the veteran discount, yeah, but in the reality is you know he was, he was forward deployed, he did the Iraq thing, he was pushing in there and doing all this stuff and living in an austere environment, stuff like that and served as long as well as some so many of the other people I know from the agency that have been in like some really austere and and probably did a hell of a lot more than most people in service did.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and they and they always go back to you like you know I wish I served, I'm like, but you did. It's the same way I talk about like police officers and anybody, federal agents and stuff like that. I'm like you're still serving, you're still giving back the one way, if it's, whether it's one year, two year, five year or a whole career, you still served and that's much more than 98.9 of the the country out there yeah, yeah, we, I guess we just don't see it that way.
Speaker 2:You know, um is you know, we don't see it the same as putting on the uniform, for whatever reason, and um and um. But no, you're, I mean it's, it's, it's a type of service. But you know, it's a funny thing and I, I don't, I've told the service, but it's a funny thing. I've told this story sometimes because it's kind of funny, because I've got a lot of buddies now that are SEALs or former Green Berets or whatever.
Speaker 2:One of my SEAL friends not long ago was like, hey, remember, we were eating MREs and doing whatever. I was like no, dude, I never did that. I was sitting around in nice hotel rooms meeting with weird people where nobody was like you know, know, that was just kind of what. We just had a different job, that was the same part of the world but a whole different thing. And uh, but you're right, it's just a different kind of service. But I don't know, I guess, yeah, you have that sort of mindset that um, that, yeah, if you weren't, um, I don't know, putting on the uniform, that it's not the same thing. But but I'm appreciative, appreciative of you saying that.
Speaker 1:You know I do. Like you know, this brings us back into the characters and your, your world. You know the Taylor Moore writing world. You know the Texas, texas is a character and while, yes, afghanistan's one of the characters, but texas is. So you're you're bringing a reality to it that it's not operator centric. You know a lot of thrillers out there and this is, I would consider this, like you know, the military thriller. This is more like thriller, but slow burn thriller and it's more based on like, okay, these guys aren't running around, like you know, delta, and they're not, like you know, taking down like hvt's in the country there.
Speaker 1:There's like a sense of reality around it and you know, when you got the, the bullies who you know, pick up an ak or something like that, or it's like the reality of what texas is like, and that's, yeah, I like that, that, I like that aspect of it yeah.
Speaker 2:So I guess a warning for anyone who hasn't read the series. It's a bit of a different series, right, it's not the straight up. I mean, there is the action, there's the bombs and the bullets and all that, but it's really a story about family and it's about, you know, this guy coming home, you know former Green Beret, dea, having served but grew up in this ranch, and he's estranged from his family and kind of wants to come back. They've had all this family drama and they've had hardships and they've had disaster and calamity throughout their lives and and he wants to go back and pick up the pieces and so a lot of that story is that. Now, obviously, you know along the way things happen and so you do get the. You know the helicopters and some fun things along that. But no, it's, it's. It's meant to be a meaningful story and it's funny. Again, talking about another former SEAL friend of mine said when he read Downrange he said that was my story, that was my homecoming to Texas and so that was a nice compliment. I thought that it struck a chord with a guy who'd served and he felt like Garrett. He felt like that Garrett Cole character and Garrett is.
Speaker 2:I never want to give too much away for people that want to read, because I like to come to things fresh. But Garrett's just a guy that wants to be left alone. He's done his service, he's done his time. He just wants to mend his, just kind of get back and be normal and have a wife or you know, just do what normal people do, but things just keep getting in the way of it. But no, it's a story about family, it's a story about relationships and and it's you know people. It's funny. People think well, you're writing this sort of outlandish things. Think, well, you're writing these sort of outlandish things.
Speaker 2:Book one's about the cartel. Book two has the Russians. Book three has Pantex, the nuclear facility which we really have up here. You guys may have been there before, but everything that I write about in the book series is something that has really happened.
Speaker 2:In fact, in some cases I'm pulling back because I think if I wrote about it people wouldn't believe it and because I was former CIA. In fact, in some cases I'm pulling back because I think if I wrote about it people wouldn't believe it and because I was former CIA, people would. You know when I was going up as a oil and gas land man people would start telling me stories like, hey, don't tell anybody, but let me tell you what the cartel is doing, or let me tell you about, like, this whole thing that the Russians are doing or whatever it is you know, back during the oil and gas days. And and so it's. It's what happens up here on the on the high plains is it's almost like we're hidden from the rest of the world because it's so isolated and so remote. Nobody really knows what's happening or what's paying. You know, nobody's paying attention. And when you have a situation like that, crazy things can happen, and they do, and so I write about it in the in the book series.
Speaker 3:There's a lot of room in Texas for things to happen just below the surface. I was in McAllen a couple of months ago and I could not figure out why there were so many high-end jewelry stores in a city this size, until one of the locals said, oh, no, no, no, those aren't. They're jewelry stores, but it's mainly just the cartels come there to launder money. You throw your money at the jewelereler and you go walk back across the border and sell the jewelry and the money's cleaned up. I'm like, yeah, that that seems to make sense, but no one thinks of that when they think of texas border yeah you know there's.
Speaker 3:There's so much room in texas. There was a a great line in the sons of katie Elder about how Texas is so big and so many mysteries are hidden.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, and I've had an opportunity, wow, to meet with some neat people and I'd love to kind of get into it. But, you know, in confidence, but the stories are so more outlandish than you can ever imagine. But the stories are so more outlandish than you can ever imagine, things that I could write about that people just would think this is too over the top and you know it involves government in Texas doing different things and but yeah, when you talk about the cartel stuff, the money laundering, of course I get into that part downrange. People were telling me about that. Things were going on, and so again, and some of it, you know, with the cowboy, the drops on the place, that was from my childhood.
Speaker 2:I grew up on a farming ranch in Central Texas, but that was the story that I'd heard is that you know they were dropping planes and these cowboys would go out on horseback and pick up the cocaine and like, take it back, and to me that imagery was just too wild not to write about at some point. So you know, like I said, if people may look at some of this stuff and go, this is too outlandish, I'm like you don't even know, man, I'm just, I'm holding back.
Speaker 3:But those characters are what makes your story. They're relatable. We've all. If you haven't had that father in your life, you know someone with Garrett's father? Mm-hmm, yeah, you know, and it is. These are character-driven stories. They're not action-driven stories. The action flows naturally through, threaded through the story, but it's driven by the characters. It's not just one action sequence rolling to the next.
Speaker 2:you know yeah, well, uh, so it's funny. And then you bring up butch. Butch is always and that's for people who haven't read the series that's garrett's dad and butch is a reader favorite. Everybody loves butch and everybody says the same thing. You know people. You know if I go to book science, be that's my uncle, or you know that's my granddad or whatever, and everybody's got a Butch in their life and and so he's a fun guy to write. I always tell people I'll never get this point of view because it's too fun for me to cause I can't get into his head. I know is that sort of a weird writer thing, but um, but he just reacts, people react to him and and I don't know what he's gonna say next, and so I know that sounds strange, so I can't get in his brain. He just reacts to what my character, my other characters are doing, like garrett. You know it gives him fits all the time and so, um, so now I appreciate that.
Speaker 2:But yeah, butch is fun and uh and I think that that, um, I said I wanted to write something, I wanted the action to mean something. And I tell people all the time, you know, because I get the questions of like, well, you know, how do you write a book, or how do you write a good character driven story, or what made you write this the way you did, way you did? And so when I wrote this series, I went to the library and I would just get stacks, stacks of books and you know all by, you know famous authors, and and and then I'd just read, I'd read a hundred, 150 pages. I'd be like, okay, I see what they've done here, toss it aside and take it back to the library. But I asked myself, I was like, why, why was I able to put this book down? Like, should read 150 pages, you should be, you should be glued to this to the end, right, and so, uh, I think for me, I said that this needs to be character driven the.
Speaker 2:The reason I don't care about these characters is I don't like, I don't, I don't care what happens, because I'm not invested. You know, I want, like, I want to care about them and so, so you know I'd read about, um, you know a terrorist who's going to blow up the town square. I was like, eh, in theory I care, but in reality I don't know anyone in the town square. But if you write these characters that people will hopefully love and you put them in jeopardy, then people you know and I've had people write to me like if you ever do something to so-and-so, I'll quit reading the series. And I I've had people write to me like if you ever do something to so-and-so, I'll quit reading the series.
Speaker 2:I've always been told that's a mark of success. If people threaten you that if you do this they won't read anymore, particularly to a character, then you've won as an author Because you've written someone so valuable to them that they think of them as a real person. So that's what I try to do. So again, thanks for noticing, because it's not by accident. You know, like the settings thing I take great. Uh, you know, I really try my best to do this and sometimes it takes many iterations to get there.
Speaker 1:Um. You know I'm listening to Meg. Gardner's books right now, and and same way you get into her characters and then she kills them off and you're like I and I interviewed her. I'm like how could you do this? I'm like I was thinking this character is going to be there forever. This is like when. I was with the Punisher series, the comic book series a guy named Micro, that was like his intel guy and he's going to be around forever. But then how do you kill that person off? And she did and I was like are you kidding me?
Speaker 1:That's the same thing with your books you don't know who's going to go.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, they say you got to kill your darlings or whatever to writers and that's a tough one. That's a tough one. I have put some characters. They didn't even know how close they were to death and they survived. But they were on the chopping block and they never even knew it and um and so it's.
Speaker 2:It's a tough one because as a as a writer there's I feel like I want to bring joy into people's lives. You know, I always tell people like I'm going to put you through hell when you read these books. You're going to be go through hell to get to the end, but I'm never going to leave you dissatisfied or getting to the end and thinking that was a ripoff. I think we've all read those books where you get to the end and you go. Really that's it. I did all of this for this, and so I try to not just have storybook endings where it's like a fairy tale or Disney or something where everything works out perfect. But I want readers to be satisfied, I want them to get to the end and go. All right, I'm good with that.
Speaker 2:And uh that turned out as good as it can turn out. And, yeah, maybe I'm a little disappointed that so-and-so didn't make it or whatever, but but all in all, that's, that's real life, you know, that's how it is. But I hate when I don't know. One of my favorite authors is Larry McMurtry, maybe my favorite of all time, you know, lonesome Dove, and you know I won't give up. I mean, surely everybody's read it by this time. But you know he kills off some characters. You're just like, oh man, like I just lost my best friend, you know, and so that's a Pulitzer Prize winning book. So I guess I can't, you know, but I don't know. It's just a personal thing. As an author, I never there's enough tragedy in people's world and there's enough bad things going on and you turn on the news and there's enough people dying without ruining someone's day. I want my books to be to whisk you away to a fun world. Like I said, I'll put you through hell, but in the end you'll be better for it. That's always my plan.
Speaker 1:Well, you're not lazy, gene and I. We have offline discussions about authors and stuff like that. We could tell where they're just going through the motions. When you're putting words to paper and you're like, hey, you know what you're an actual like. When you're putting words to paper and you're like, hey, you know what I'm really putting, you're thinking about the characters, you're living their characters. You think about what your audience is going to do, but you're building a world. You're not doing cliche acts. You know it's not all cliche, because I mean, yeah, you can read a million books and come up with the same different topics and rephrase them, but yours are very authentic and they got that slow burn feel to it. But then, you know, intermingle with, like man, what's going to happen next?
Speaker 2:You want.
Speaker 1:You're vested in these characters, you're vested in these books, and that's what you know. Where are we going next with Cold Trail?
Speaker 2:Well, let me, well, before I get there, I'll say, I'll say thank you again for doing that, cause I really work hard. That was another thing that I did when I was first building the series. You know, sometimes we've all been in a book series or a book and you're reading and it's got multiple characters and you're like, uh, you're really loving this thing. And then you get to this person, like, oh, you know, like, let me just sort of get through that, to like to get to the person.
Speaker 2:I like, again, my goal was to make every character, their story, as meaningful and to reel every reader in on each person's story, as much as the protagonist, as much as they're into Garrett Cole, I want them to be into all these other people. And so far I feel like I've, you know, I've had a good reader response that people will say, oh, my favorite character is Lacey, or my favorite character is Asadi or whatever you know, and, and so that's what I love. I love it when people their favorite character isn't the protagonist. I think that's fun because they're all interrelated, so it's not, like you know, the stories aren't, don't all come together. So so, thanks, thanks for saying that, because I work really hard at that. Um yeah, with cold trail, you want to jump into that?
Speaker 1:yeah, we'll do a little blur. I you know I've been trying to do this thing where we don't talk a little too much about the book, because I want people to be surprised me too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm okay if we don't go too far, because I I personally I hate knowing anything, so I never want to give anything away.
Speaker 1:I'm the same way. It's almost like when you watch the previews for a movie and you're like God damn, why did I watch that?
Speaker 2:I know I'm going. Oh, I bet this is going to be the scene on the preview. You know what I mean.
Speaker 3:I sit there and wait for this.
Speaker 2:Or people could tell me 10 years ago about a book or a movie and, for some reason, when I finally watch it I'll be like, okay, there's a scene that they told me that won't ruin the story. But here's, it's coming up and I just I hate it.
Speaker 1:I just I love everything with social media, you know, and that killed me when they killed off Han Solo. I knew about it before winning. I was like you gotta be kidding.
Speaker 2:How are you going to tell me that? How are you going to tell me that? I mean, seriously, I know, I know, no, it ruins it. I, I love coming in fresh to things, um, and that's why and I've had people tell me that the my summaries on the book give away a little bit too much, and they probably do. But you have to do it, I don't I don't know any way around it.
Speaker 2:but, um, but I don't read book summaries, usually like I might read, like if I get a book, I'll go, I'll read, maybe like the first sentence, and then I'll just go okay, that's good enough, because I don't want to know. I just want to jump into their lives and see what happens.
Speaker 1:I'm thinking like the Intel people, all the Intel people I know like analyst, know very introverted types, very analytical. A lot of writers are the same way. You know cause you really have to put these things together. You're not used to being in front of the big audiences. Now cold trails coming out. This is going to be the fourth book and you're going to have to get in front of a lot of people again and a lot of people are going to be like almost like you know, like many podcasts, interviews, everywhere, and you're gonna have new audiences and new fans and new people who are like a little critical. But how do you deal with like getting out in public and getting in front of people? I did you kind of like ease into this or was this kind of one of those like oh man you know, no, it doesn't bother me at all.
Speaker 2:Um, I'm, I'm, I'm an extrovert, so, um, it doesn't bother me at all to do it. Um, yeah, I, I, I don't mind. I kind of go into a zone and I've told people before. I know it's kind of funny because people come out like hey, I met you at a book signing and I will not remember them and um, but you know, it just is what it is. Or if I get up, know, if I get up to give a talk, I don't mind doing it, I don't get nerves anymore. Maybe, if I can I can't think of the last time I had a nerve, but it doesn't bother me, but I just go into go mode. And it's funny.
Speaker 2:I went to a book signing one time I thought I was going to sign and they had a podium no-transcript and those dudes don't play around. You know, you better get ready, you better know your stuff and you better be ready to take a tongue lashing sometimes and hear why you're wrong, and that's just not to get on a rant. But that's why I get so mad at the media sometimes, like the level of like scrutiny that they, you know, do stories with. I'm, like in the Intel community, like a general, would be all over one sentence Like oh, what does this mean? Oh, where did that come from?
Speaker 2:Why did you say that? Well, what was the source? Is that source a good source? How do you know that source? You, you know what I mean. So everything we had to do is so scrutinized that when you go into a briefing or you know if you had a paper, whatever it is, or any kind of report, you knew everything there was about that thing, because at some point everybody's going to mess up. And I did one time with an ambassador and I never forgot it. You know, I had, I had something to say and I couldn't back it up and it was humiliating. But so for me, you know, you, I kind of did that in the Intel community and I sort of got used to like getting up there and giving my spiel and being able to back it up and so. So now, as an author, I came in loaded for bear.
Speaker 1:I guess you'd say, well, that brings it up into the books too. Is you have to be it, have you almost have to like write? You're writing fiction but it's almost like you have to cite it. You know you have to back it up with with actual facts when you're getting into this stuff too, and I'm glad you brought that up. A lot of people don't realize, like in the DOD sphere, even as a contractor and this goes with the agency as well when you're making critical decisions, that could be life and death, or you know, it doesn't even necessarily have to be life or death. It could be like this could change to shift the focus at a political sphere. It could do so much. Every single word has to be right, every word.
Speaker 1:It could be like if shall, when I mean everything has to be right and it's got to bring a full picture to the decision makers, picture to the decision makers. So when you're reading these books and when you're, when you're writing the books, you're probably thinking in your mind. At the end state, the reader needs to understand exactly what's going on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know it's, this is a weird one. This is a weird one, um, because and and trust me, I don't know what the line you know there's that old, uh, it was like some Supreme Court justice. They said like what's pornography? And he's like I don't know, I know it when I see it, kind of a thing. I heard that a lot. It's something like that. I know I'm getting it wrong, but getting things right Because, you know, as a fiction writer, as a thriller writer, you're writing such outlandish stuff. There's a level that I'm sort of I give myself sort of free reigns to sort of do what I want, but then there's things that I won't deviate because I feel like it's wrong. I'll give you an example, the one I don't always hate. And they get it wrong all the time, is they always? And you guys probably know this but there is no CIA agent. You know everybody says, oh, he's a CIA agent.
Speaker 3:There is no agent, the only agent is an asset.
Speaker 2:You know, sometimes we'll use the word agent for an asset which in law enforcement would be a source, or you know, of information. So so people always say and I answered you know, people introduced me to a CIA agent. You know, I don't say anything because people don't know and you hear it all the time in the news, you hear it all the time in fiction, but there's little things like that. So there's a level of like. Somebody asked me this the other day and I said I'm fine with the Jason Bourne thing, that's fine. It's so wild and outlandish that you've got the super soldier spy guy. I'm fine with that because it's totally created or creative. You know, it's just something a world created. But the problem I have with is like, uh, my son's into all the. You know, we're doing the marvel movies and so we watched black panther the other day and the, the cia guy they were calling like agent smith or whatever. I was like no, nobody would call him agent smith. And he said something at one point like this is out of my jurisdiction, or whatever. I can't remember it was something like that. I was like no jurisdiction, no, we don't arrest people, we don't, you know. So there are some things that I'm fine with at Outlandish and then there's things I'm fine with. And so when it comes to there are times when I look at my own stuff, I'm like, well, this should be more accurate, but I think it would. It would ruin the fun. You know what I mean? Uh like, think about every cop movie you've ever seen. There's always two guys riding around in a cop car. I'm like I don't think I've ever seen two cops riding together in a cop car. There's always like partners, like where, where are these partners that you always see on TV? But how boring would it be with the one guy just sitting around talking to himself. So you know, there's these certain liberties that I guess we sort of go with.
Speaker 2:And the other funny one a guy wrote about a. He wrote a screenplay and I was looking at and he had like a security guard at the bank. I was like I was like man, I'll be honest with you, my entire life I've been to a lot of banks. I don't think I've ever seen a security guard. I was like I know they probably have them somewhere. When I was in south america they had them all over the place but like in america, a small town bank. I've never seen a security guard. Now, I'm sure there are, I'm sure they are, but I've just never seen it. But I guess we accept it right. There's always the, the security guard, somehow, you know, in hell or high water, you know what. I love that maybe. But there's like the small town bank with the.
Speaker 1:Well, Gene, you're the last question. We got to let Taylor go.
Speaker 3:I wish I had thought of one. I just want to, with less a question and more an expression of gratitude for the work that you put in and the world that you built. The world that you built um, I have thoroughly. I I was, I read um downrange on a cruise, and someone I was sitting in every, every couple of months or so, myself and the fair larissa, just jump on a cruise ship and live like house cats, which means we we sleep till we're hungry and we eat till we're tired. Yeah, there you go and uh so.
Speaker 3:So the topic for this one was your first book and someone interrupted me. I was at a critical juncture in it and someone either asked me a question or is this seat taken? And I remember feeling so frustrated that I had been. It was like someone walking in between. Remember, your dad would always say get out of the way of the television. That's how I felt, and it had been quite a while since I felt that way about a thriller, and I'm a. I'm a. I'm a prolific end user of thrillers, so I get to look at this from a fan's point of view and I am, I'm really really super grateful for the work that you put in and I can't wait to get up to the panhandle well, thank you.
Speaker 2:No, seriously thank you for the the kind words, because I know, and I mean that when I say, when I tell you guys, thank you, because I I know people probably think you go and it's like this fanfare of being an author, it's not like that at all. You know, you write in a vacuum. I sit in this office all day by myself and um, and I never hear anything one way or the other you know you'll get emails or people you know hit you up on social media occasionally.
Speaker 2:But you know, if you talk to your editor, usually it's something you did wrong or they don't like. They don't tell you the good things. Usually it's always the things that are that are wrong, and so all you hear really is the negative. So when you do hear some, a good piece of uh, oh, you know somebody particularly likes something, it goes a long way because I know people think like, oh, you just must be great at telling stories or whatever. And you know, naturally I mean, if you're doing this, you got a knack for it. But so much work goes on, you know, goes into this and you know I think we were talking earlier about you know's you can tell when it's lazy and man, I mean, if you're doing the job right, you do it. So you literally can't do it anymore. You literally can't read those words anymore and that's usually the point that I'm at. So so no, thank you for saying that. I really do appreciate it.
Speaker 1:You're welcome. We are looking forward to cold trail and we're looking forward to getting together with Josh hood and the guys and doing a little shooting.
Speaker 2:Let's do it, let me know.
Speaker 1:You know, let me you know. While we're at it here, let me let me bring up, you know, josh, right, taylor you know, I don't know.
Speaker 2:Josh, we've done a little bit of back and forth. You, I'm just going to reach out. He's one of those guys that we all know. The same people.
Speaker 1:I feel like.
Speaker 2:I know him, but I need to like. We just need to make that phone call and I'm going to be at Dousher Con in Nashville, so I don't know if he's going to be. He lives in Nashville, right? Yeah, yeah, so you know, I'll reach out to him beforehand.
Speaker 1:Yeah because he's friends with Mark Rainey. Yeah, yeah, I know, mark. Yeah, good for them. You know, because I interviewed Mark and we talked about staccatos. Yeah, gene, you know what? I think I'll tell this story offline.
Speaker 2:You can't let the staccato go. I can't let this go. You just cannot let this go. I cannot let this go.
Speaker 3:Taylor, what's your favorite?
Speaker 1:Oh, when we get offline. Here I'm going to tell you this quick, staccato story.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:Okay, and Josh, this one's for you, buddy, and staccato you. Out there, everybody gets a staccato except Jason. We do the interview. Oh well, you know what I was going to tell it. So I interview Mark and we ended up talking about staccatos Cause, like you know, I shoot a lot of different guns. I shoot all I shoot. I literally work at a range now but I'm shooting like on my own like two or three times a week Cause I just I can't stop, you know. But we ended up talking to Staccato's and then Josh sends me a picture and goes hey, look what I got in the mail. Or look what I got they sent to Mr Cotto Next thing you know, mark is like hey, look what I got.
Speaker 1:I'm like, oh, thanks guys.
Speaker 2:I wonder what would do the interview books.
Speaker 1:Oh Nighthawk, here we go.
Speaker 3:That's.
Speaker 2:Garrett's and the people. The CEO has been very nice to me, but I have not received a Nighthawk yet.
Speaker 1:You have not received a okay. Taylor Moore has not received a Nighthawk. That is like that's one of the characters of the book.
Speaker 2:I know it is. And Lone Star Armory I use as his, you know, rifle and so and those guys are great, Everybody's great, Don't get me wrong.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I wouldn't turn down.
Speaker 2:I wouldn't turn down, yeah, but you know here's the reality.
Speaker 1:Taylor Moore, that who needs a Nighthawk and a Lone Star Rifle? But you need to do your product research. You need to be able to shoot it, you need to understand, able to shoot it you need to understand it, and it's become like your second nature I mean, this is a character. This is your fourth book. I know this is the main character of the book.
Speaker 2:I know, you know what Okay.
Speaker 1:So you know, let's, let's. You know, gene, we got another couple of minutes here. Let's, let's. Take a look at some of these Nighthawks on. They don't give them away.
Speaker 2:They don't give them away, they can't because they're pricey.
Speaker 1:You're Taylor Moore. This thing's a character.
Speaker 2:This thing's going to be in a movie or a series, maybe when they do the movie. Both people at both places have been beyond kind. I wouldn't turn down a hat or a t-shirt. Oh my gosh, you know what I tell you.
Speaker 1:I've been doing competition with the 1911 types. I have a uh, a double stack 1911 wilson combat and I love them, man. Yeah, and you know, when you bring these into, bring, I mean it's so weird in 1911 types are coming back or 2011s. I call them that because I tell you you know, I started shooting that the sigs and the glocks and everything else for competition, but when you start shooting one of these things, it's like distilled, it's like butter.
Speaker 2:I know it's different. Holy crap.
Speaker 1:Look at these things. Everybody check. You got to go to Nighthawk Custom. Oh my gosh. Should I look at the government model or the commander or the officer.
Speaker 2:They're all yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they're not giving these things away. They're pretty crazy, but yeah, you're going to get something when you get them, though.
Speaker 2:And check out Lone Star Armory too. They're out of Fort Worth and they make ARs, but great rifles too.
Speaker 1:I've got to check out Lone Star Armory and you know, next time we come down we actually really do have to go shooting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that'd be great.
Speaker 1:And we'll bring Gene with us. We'll do a road trip Before we go. We're going to take a look at Lone Star Armory here.
Speaker 3:Oh the staccato thing.
Speaker 1:I'm never going to let that go. Man Nighthawk's going to be my thing.
Speaker 3:This is becoming your white whale and I'm a little worried that you're going to set out on the Pequod and not come back, because you were out looking for a staccato.
Speaker 1:Oh, this TX and not come back because you were out looking for a staccato.
Speaker 2:Oh, this txn and ar10 oh, these things are sweet, man, let's start armory. Yeah, well, I learned about them through a buddy of mine does competition, long range shooting and and uh, and I kind of you know, and so I have my gun people that I contact because I know a little, but you know, probably like you I could contact you and be like I'll tell you everything there is to know and and so I have my gun people and so I said, well, he said you should use lone star army. I said, were they good? He goes, well, that's what I use. And like this guy takes it serious, I was like, fair enough, there you go, that's you know what?
Speaker 1:I'm over here trying to listen to you and I'm looking at these things and I'm like, and you know what? They're a solid price, yeah a solid price for precision firearm. These are very. I'm looking at the TX four standard carbine right now and it's got all the furniture you need. It's got everything you need and I'd like that they don't you know. Yeah, I'm going to check these out.
Speaker 2:Absolutely Good people over there too. Really good people Both, both places Good, good, good people.
Speaker 1:Well, before we get you know cause, once I get on these firearms tangents, I can go for like another hour, so we better stop. Yeah, so we, uh, we, we threw staccato under the bus.
Speaker 3:Hey, you know I give him a lot of credit.
Speaker 1:My buddy um. My buddy just traveled up. He's an Austin cop.
Speaker 2:He's a different animal right there, man.
Speaker 1:That's the Rolex of 1911s right now.
Speaker 3:You can have a Rolex or you can have a Nighthawk, but if you got both, I'm probably going to mug you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly you know what. If you have a Rolex and you're in Texas, you're carrying a Nighthawk. Yeah, if you're carrying what's a good, $2,000 watch or $1,500 watch, omegas, are they $1,500?
Speaker 2:Yeah, Tag Heuer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you got a Tag. You're carrying a Staccato. Now, if you're like me, you're running around with the old Timex that you have to wind up and I'm rolling with the Glock, the combat Tupperware. You know what I mean, yeah. So, yeah, I need to come up. I need to do a whole podcast about that one Watches and guns, but anyway, I'm going to check out that Lone Star Army as well, because I love.
Speaker 2:ARs man, I love them. Yeah, check it out. And just solid group of people over there.
Speaker 1:So now they hook you up with an AR? No, I don't know what to say right now. I really don't know. I know.
Speaker 2:Maybe one day, maybe when the fifth book comes out and when it's beyond option.
Speaker 1:And now you're like, you know it's coming to the screen like, oh, we know that guy. He put our guns in his books.
Speaker 2:Well, maybe one day I'll make enough, that guy, he put our guns in his books. I know, no, oh gosh. Well, maybe one day I'll make enough so I can buy my own. I'll be happy to do that. Exactly.
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