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The Protectors® Podcast
Welcome to The Protectors® Podcast, where the valor meets the storyteller. Hosted by Jason Piccolo, a seasoned veteran and retired special agent, this series is a must-listen for anyone intrigued by the courage and tales of those who pledge to protect us. Beyond the front-line stories of bravery and dedication, this podcast goes a step further, weaving in the perspectives of those who bolster and narrate the protector's journey—featuring a remarkable lineup including New York Times Best Sellers and acclaimed Hollywood actors.
The Protectors® Podcast offers a diverse array of voices, from those who wear the uniform to the authors and entertainers who amplify their stories. It's a unique blend that highlights not only the raw realities faced by our protectors but also how their sacrifices inspire the narratives we cherish in literature and film. Each episode is a testament to the interconnected worlds of service and support, bringing listeners an unmatched depth of insight.
Dr. Jason Piccolo is a retired federal agent, former U.S. Army Infantry Captain (Iraq 2006), and author.
Past Guests Include:- Sean Patrick Flanery - Andrews & Wilson- Mark Greaney- Stephen Hunter- Remi Adeleke - Florent Groberg - Clint Emerson - Travis Mills
The Protectors® Podcast
504 | Tim Meleski & Trisha Houghton | Reimagining Mental Health Care for Veterans
Ever wondered why seeking mental health support is often stigmatized in military communities? Join us as Marine Corps veteran Tim Meleski and mental health expert Trisha Houghton tackle these pressing issues head-on. Tim bravely recounts his struggles with PTSD and anger management, sharing the challenges he faced seeking help without jeopardizing his career. Trisha offers valuable insights into her programs that provide critical support to veterans, emphasizing the importance of encouragement and proactive strategies to combat stigma.
Make sure to check out Jason on IG @drjasonpiccolo
Can I have?
Speaker 2:a quick question for you.
Speaker 1:Yes, you do. Hey, welcome to the Protectors Podcast. We have a quick question by Tricia Houghton.
Speaker 2:Oh well, thank you, jason, I appreciate it. We do have a quick question Question being okay. First of all, thank you for having me here today and big thanks for Tim for introducing us. My question was I do many things, and so I was wondering what you would like me to talk about.
Speaker 1:I would like you to talk about TBI, ptsd, mental health and anything you guys would like to. I like really like Tim to kind of bring it up, because everybody Tim Molesky is back and what we're talking about today is really veteran mental health and how we can get help without having to be kind of tied down with that stigma and sometimes you know the hidden wounds that you're afraid to come out and talk about. You know, tim and I were talking offline before we started and Tim was mentioning about, hey, he went to anger management. You know, I think we talked about that in our last show. But you go there and then all of a sudden it opens up another worm and the next thing, you know, your chain of command hears about something they're sending away and it might curtail promotions, it might curtail anything it might. It might have people be hesitant to come forward to get to help before it's too late. So that's kind of where I was thinking about going today. What do you guys think?
Speaker 3:yeah, yeah, I can. Yeah, I can definitely. I'll start it off with that and just kind of give a really quick background of myself and then how I got hooked up with Tricia and then, you know, go into why it's actually a really important thing for Tricia to be here and talk about her program, because, I mean, veteran suicide is already an epidemic, but at least within my own community right now it's especially bad currently. But I'm you know, just for those that don't remember me when I came onto the podcast from before I'm Tim Maleski.
Speaker 3:I served 18 years in the Marine Corps, 12 of which was with MARSOC, and you know, through that, you know just through my childhood, also through service and stuff, I've had some traumas and some difficulties with those traumas and actually that's why I, medically retired, was got to a point where I just couldn't physically or mentally do the job again and because of that I went through a lot of programs and therapies and stuff. I went to an inpatient, a seven-week inpatient program, intensive outpatient substance abuse programs and stuff, you name it. I did it, and so I was very adamant about fixing myself and prior to that, prior to actually raising my hand and stating that I had issues that needed to be resolved. I had been doing a lot of research on my own. It was about two years prior to ever raising my hand, where I was like I don't understand why I'm the way I am and how to fix that. At the time I looked at it as increasing my performance at home as well as not being such a liability at work on the teams, and and so I started exploring. I got I read every book that I could get my hands on when it came to psychology and philosophy, because I didn't really have a moral code that I lived by. So I was trying to figure that out On top of, like I said, why am I the way I am?
Speaker 3:And and then it got to a point where I wasn't, I was not getting better rapidly enough. So then I was like, ok, well, I can't say anything to my command, because at the time I wanted to take the long walk, I wanted to go go to that next tier up, and I really felt that if I said anything, that was going to completely jeopardize that dream. And so I went to anger management because I was like I'm not going to talk to anybody about my problems, I'll try to manage the anger and the rage that I have. And after some conversations, the anger management guy was like I think you need a little bit more than just anger management. And so I was like, okay, well, what does that look like? And because I was paying all of this out of pocket, by the way, cause this was out of network, because I didn't want the command to know and it was, it was something that was like not sustainable, something that I couldn't do, and so I was like, well, that's not going to work. So I guess I'm, I guess we're done here, you know, sort of deal.
Speaker 3:And then I continued just trying to research on my own. And I continued just trying to research on my own. It got to a point, like I kind of stated on the last time I was here, the world was burning around me and I realized, like I was holding the gas can and was like holy crap, like I need to do something about this. And it was getting to a point where I was getting bad enough, where I was like, ok, like it's either this or lose everything. So I finally raised my hand. It was like and actually we were talking about it before we started it all actually started when I went to go get a sleep study, because I was only sleeping like three hours a night and it was like broken up sleep and I was like, hey, I'm not sleeping, what do I do about that? And they're like okay, well, well, first, before we give you a sleep study, we want you to fill out this PTSD and TBI form. And so I was like all right, and it was the first time in my career that I was actually honest on any of those sort of questionnaires and and so when they saw it, they were like whoa, like yo, you need to go to our TBI clinic, like yesterday sort of deal.
Speaker 3:And the thing was I never came forward about TBI or anything because I had never been blown up. So I was exhibiting all these issues. Like it got to a point where I was like having to put sticky notes, like on my computer in the office, in my car and and at home, so that I didn't drop tasks. And if I dropped tasks, it was looked, it was viewed as though I wasn't like caring about my job. And I was like, no, I don't understand what's happening. I care, I just I don't know why I forgot Like and, and I wouldn't even say that most of the time because I was like I don't know what's wrong with me, like do I not care? Am I not working hard enough? Like you know, sort of deal, and uh.
Speaker 3:And so when it, when that came back that I could possibly have TBI, and then, having gone to intrepid spirit and actually got educated on what TBI is and how it kind of manifests within the special operations community, um, it became very clear that, like, I was not going to be the only one, and most likely almost every individual on the team probably has some sort of a degree of TBI, um, as well as, uh, ptsd, regardless to whether they've seen combat or not. Um, because that's one of the things along my journey that I've realized um is that trauma is trauma and you know it's like the, the symptoms are all the same, it's just the circumstances that are different. And and so at that point in time it was like, ok, well, I need to attack the, the, the symptoms, right, and and I at the time I viewed that as it had to be therapy. I was just at a point in my life where I was like I don't give a shit anymore about this. Like, whole, I need to be tough sort of sort of deal, like I just need to fix this. And a lot of guys are not at that place, right, which is why a lot of guys don't seek help.
Speaker 3:And I I even after all the progress I had made and trying to spread the word and being a huge proponent about seeking help even guys with guys that I knew were having major issues, like let me just put it this way, and I think I may have mentioned this last time but like guys that would show up like as an instructor, drunk to the, the, the, the workday, and then pass out under a desk, and then we'd all be like, ah, he's dealing with something, so then, like we would then take his class and teach it, and we were all enabling each other. And it's like I would go up to those individuals and be like yo, dude, you need to talk to someone. They're like, nah, I'm good. And it's like no, you're not, I know you're not. Go talk to someone. And they're like no, I'm good. And it's like okay, um, and so I was just like thinking to myself, just like talking to people about God, like some people are just not ready for it, and um, and so I was like well, hopefully they will see my progress, see the peace that I get you know from what I'm doing, and hopefully they'll want to follow suit, and unfortunately, a lot haven't, and recently this past month in July we've lost like four or five guys from the Marsau community um to to suicide, and right now, the, the community is kind of clamoring and being like what do we do? What is what is happening right now, and I have my own theories about that, uh, specifically, that we don't need to get into, but um, about, like, what's happening, uh, but uh, but the the.
Speaker 3:The thing is, though, is there is something out there that I was not aware of that, actually, I became aware of from my, my buddy, uh Denny's podcast, security halt, and that's uh, uh, tricia and her program, and so I had, I had just heard like, or my Denny reached out to me. It was like hey, man, like do you deal with stress? Like knowing what I was going to say, I was like, uh, yeah, uh, and at the time I had we this was a little bit after we had spoken right about transition and stuff like that on the last time I was on the podcast, and my stress was so insane and uh, and I was. I don't care anymore about saying this, but I would have at the time, like I was trying to take my kids to school and I was like there was just, everything was just going wrong and my body was not able to handle the stress. I was literally leaning up against my front door like crying, telling myself like there's, I can't do this, I don't my my kids are, I guess they're not going to school Cause I can't. I can't do this. I don't my, my kids are, I guess they're not going to school because I can't. I can't do this.
Speaker 3:And I literally had to go back into my mind, like I was in selection again, and be like what is your next task? Focus only on that task. Like my tire, there was just a bunch of stuff going wrong. The tire was flat, the like little thing that I had to like fill up. The tire was like not working and so I had had to like fix that. I was like just fix that. So I fixed it and was like okay, go take care of the tire, only focus on the tire. And so, and I had to like walk myself through it as if I was getting through like some sort of selection scenario or whatever, and it was crazy. I was like what is wrong with me?
Speaker 3:And there was another time I was trying to fill out paperwork and I was having this crazy panic attack and all I was doing was copying from one piece of paper to another I wasn't even having to write anything out of my mind and again my body was like shaking, I was hyperventilating and like, and also tears were streaming down my face which is weird for me because I don't ever cry and I was like I don't know what's happening to me. My body was like completely not doing what I needed it to do. And so my my, you know, going back to Denny, asking me are you stressed? I was like, dude, you have no idea. Um, and so he was like well, there's a podcast that I just did that you might want to listen to, and so I listened to it and I hear of Trisha's program, and so I contacted her and I've been working with her for what? Seven weeks now, I think seven or eight weeks and massive, massive progress, massive relief and the best part about it and obviously I'll let Trisha go into this in more detail and something that literally boggles my mind every single time we we meet is.
Speaker 3:It does not. It is not therapy and it does not require you to divulge anything about your trauma. And so obviously I'm I've been through so much treatment Like I, that's not an issue for me. But the exciting part is that this right here is groundbreaking for just really the military community, but especially a special operations. Special operations community currently, because it is a like dudes are dropping man, even guys that like are proponents of mental health, like you know, gio just passed recently and he was putting up a or standing up a program for veteran suicide and he killed himself. You know, it's like even especially the guys that you don't expect are going and and it's like dude, like what do we do about this? And I think a lot of it is. We just need an outlet that guys feel comfortable going going to.
Speaker 3:That isn't command related, because active duty can take advantage of this as well. It's not command connected, it's not command correct or uh related. It's uh private, um, you don't have to divulge anything about your trauma. And it attacks all of the, the systems, uh, which is like the things that are causing all the bullshit that you're going through. That is like lowering your performance at home, lowering your performance at work and making it seem like you know shit's not worth doing anymore, like I can't.
Speaker 3:If you've ever said to yourself like I can't do this anymore, then like this program is for you and, like I said, you don't have to talk about anything, so there's no more excuse, and so with that I guess I'll turn it to Tricia so she can give more more detail on it. But it was, it has been. I'm not through the program yet, but just the eight weeks that I've done has dude have massive effects on not only just me, but my wife is doing it as well. But it's had an effect on our relationship, on the family in general, like the household is more healthy. It's just, it's crazy to me. It sounds like I'm like selling like some sort of snake oil or like there, here's the solution to all your problems. But um, like yeah, I just from there. I'll just let Trisha explain. It's crazy.
Speaker 2:Thank you, tim Really appreciate that. And Tim, I mean here's the thing you guys is. Tim has worked really hard. He'll tell you. I told him from the beginning it's not an easy thing, it's not an easy program, but it's doable and if you break it down and you trust me week to week, or at least trust yourself or both, or just a leap of faith, we will get through it. So I really appreciate that.
Speaker 2:For those that don't know me, I am Tricia Houghton. I am a stressolist Started as a joke, you guys. However, nervous system dysregulation specialist is way too much to say and stressolist caught on. So, basically, I specialize in all things stress, the body, the mind and how everything interacts and impacts our life body, the mind and how everything interacts and impacts our life. The program that Tim has been referencing is called the HACC program.
Speaker 2:The HACC program I created out of my personal nervous system dysregulation that I, too, learned about the hard way from spending 15 years in crisis and trauma. Mental health. Mine seemingly caught up with me in a day. Now, of course, hindsight, of course it did not catch up with me in one day. It just seemingly decided to really show itself on that day and was a career ender in my first career of counseling and working in crisis and things like that. You know, the thing that I asked myself once I found out about the big name right is nervous system dysregulation. Is that number one? It's not talked about, and this, this happened to me, starting six years ago. So I've been a coach for the past six years, starting with this program.
Speaker 2:This was my first program because I developed it out of a need. People say you know, necessity is the mother of invention. So upon hearing I had this thing, I heard, okay, so let me go do a deep dive, since I don't know what it is, I've never heard about it and there was very little to say about it on the internet. It was not very much talked about at all and I really had to do some digging. So I went from specialist to specialist and, based on what they share with me, created this hack program, based on what I would test, what I would try, what I would read and then kind of how my body responded, as Tim will share with you, I'm very big on look, your body is just trying to do one job and that's keep you alive. So when you feel anxious, when you feel super depressed when you feel irritated, agitated, what I call living in the aided family. That's just trying to give you information. It's not trying to be, you know, you're not trying to shoot yourself in the foot. It's just trying to say, hey, we're not okay and we need some attention here, and that's not a bad thing. It's just we don't know what to do with it.
Speaker 2:And until now, right, people have said, oh well, you got to go to therapy. Right, people have said, oh well, you got to go to therapy. Right, I am not against therapy. I'm going to start by saying that, however, certain populations benefit more than others. Something like very much therapy for Tim or operators can honestly do a lot more harm than good because you can relive trauma right and in going through it, it actually can do more damage.
Speaker 2:Now, like I said, everybody is different. I'm not against therapy, but this is a coaching approach that requires that you do not have to divulge any of your pre-existing trauma If you want to. And what I tell you know, those awesome people like Tim that I work with is like to. And what I tell you know, those awesome people like Tim that I work with is like, hey, if you need to go there. Go there. I'm not going to deter it, however I do. I will kindly remind you like we're getting pretty deep into this. Would you like to continue? Because we all know, hey, when we get going in a story, we can just easily keep going, and if you say yes, absolutely, I'm down for that, and if you say you know what, no, I'd like to back it up. That we can do as well. And the point being is we relive it. We relive it in our body and even if our mind can talk about it, usually we haven't done the body work piece, so you've got basically two brains. You got obviously a brain in your mind, but your body also has a brain and a memory, usually as kind of the.
Speaker 2:I break this down is when you have nervous system dysregulation. A lot of the therapy deals with the mind, although now we're doing more body work, which is a great thing. But this is why you have people, years after therapy or programs, hear that right, stere, stereotypical, car fire and their body jumps and they're like that was weird. That hasn't happened in five years, 10 years, you name it. Okay, that's because the body remembers and we've treated the mind and like you're a lot better than you were. However, the body part did not heal.
Speaker 2:So, essentially, in nervous system dysregulation, the theory is right is that from way too many fight flight responses, your body said over time you know what, we're wasting energy, turning on and off, we're just going to leave it on, we're just going to leave all the adrenaline and assume we need this amount of all the chemicals at the max every day. Because, well, like Tim, 18 years right, like he's done that for so many years, his body's just anticipating it and it says it's very similar to you going, you know, you go in an office 100 times a day, eventually going to say why do I turn the light on and off every time? Let me just leave it on? Understandable thought. But what happens to the bulb? If you leave it on? It's going to burn. It can't take that amount of firing and no reprieve. You have to have that pause and recovery. Now that doesn't mean that your body won't perform because, well, fight flight is going to make you perform.
Speaker 2:It just is every single time. And that's why I tell some people are very concerned that if they turn off right especially our military soft members, seal members that they won't be able right to defend and I think, tim, we had chatted about this when they, when and if they needed to, I said rest assured, your body will take over, your training will take over. If you're ever in a situation where you need to respond, it's still more than willing to fire pun intended at any point in time. To fire pun intended at any point in time. Did you have a thought there, tim?
Speaker 3:Oh, yeah, yeah, I was going to say, yeah, that's 100% true, but it's just a narrative that we tell ourselves just because we're so used to being so switched on. I know that that was one of my complaints in therapy initially was so they? I? I'm not on any SSRIs now, but I was on two different SSRIs and an antipsychotic which, by the way, when, when you use antipsychotics in lower doses, it's just like an enhanced SSRI. So, um, yes, I was crazy, but not like that. Um, but uh, but anyways, like I was on a lot of stuff and it had really crappy side effects, um, where I was like collapsing and stuff, which is why it was like I need to get off this stuff. Um, but one of the things, though, is it deadened me a lot and and I was like, uh, the therapy and this meds, like all this stuff that I'm doing, like I felt great all the time, I felt sharp, I felt deadly and all of a sudden, now I don't and I'm like I don't like that, and really what it was was it was just me feeling different. Um, I have, I don't have anything against meds. I think it's a good supplement um to, because a lot of people think meds are like the answer. It's not. It's a supplement to supplement the work that you're doing. Put you in a space for you to be able to do the work. Um, it's just, in my case, the combination. I had had some, uh, bad effects, but I still support taking meds.
Speaker 3:But, moving forward, I was. I remember I was taking my dad to a doctor appointment and I wasn't even paying attention to my surroundings, which is really odd for me. But I was just walking down the hall and I heard a noise behind me. It sounds funny, but my entire body shot around to meet whatever that noise was. I completely did a 180 way faster than I even expected. I didn't. It was almost as if I barely perceived the noise and I was already moving. And, uh, and it surprised me, I didn't, I, it was like one of those things. I was like whoa, like what the heck? Like? Why, why did I? Why did I do that? And I, and it was. It was hilarious because it was this little old lady walking down the steps and she even looked at me because of how I reacted, which is crazy because I haven't been through a bunch of heavy combat With the way I reacted. You would think that I had been through the invasion in Fallujah or something. But my entire body shot me around and I was ready for a, a fight, and I didn't even perceive it. And I was on all those medications and I was going through all the therapy and I wasn't paying attention. So my, my body reacted without me having to do anything.
Speaker 3:So the narrative that we tell ourselves that, like you're not going to be ready which obviously I'm, I'm uh, it's funny, it's easy for me to say that, but I'm still super hyper vigilant, which I'm working on, um, but but that was proof for me and hopefully proof for others, and I'm sure those that are listening can attest to this. You know, when you're not paying attention and your body just reacts um, it's still there, it doesn't go away, um, and so you can. I mean here the thing we all talk about how, like you know, like no one rises to the occasion, like you have, you can only rely on your training, right, and so in this case, you need to rely on your training. You know that you've been trained. If you were good at your job and you trained hard, then you know that you're going to react like the training will kick in.
Speaker 3:It is a part of you now, so you don't have to worry about it not working. So you got. You should focus more on taking care of yourself and being able to. And here's another thing we also talk about how we should blend into our surroundings as soft right Yet like when we're, when we're here back as a civilian, we certainly don't act like it, you know. So it's like we're not even following our own, our own tenets. There's all kinds of hypocrisy within our own, uh, mindsets that I could go over, which I won't. But but yeah, just super long explanation to say, yes, your body will react, you'll be fine, so you can, you can lower the stress levels because when the when, the time comes and it and it counts like you will, you will, you know, fall back on your training and react.
Speaker 1:Well, let's talk about it. I want to know, tricia, what's the program here, because I'm thinking I'm like anxiety. I've been on anxiety meds for damn near over a decade now and I'd love to get off of them. I'd love to just be able to. I don't want to have that numb feeling. I'm caffeinated, but sometimes you just kind of get to this point where you don't want to have any medication. You want to be completely clear. So let's talk about it.
Speaker 2:So the program, it's comprehensive, and what that means is we don't just deal with the mental, we deal with the physical, we deal with the emotional oh, you're muted there, do you know that? Okay, we deal with the emotional, we deal with the physical, we deal with the relational. We talk about ways that this overlaps it. This nervous system dysregulation overlaps into relationships with your kids, with your spouse, with your whomever, and so it's a holistic program, again, I think, treating their benefits to all types of therapies, but the most that I've found is holistic, because then you're dealing with all the systems. That really is one big system. So it's about three to six months in total. So so, for example, tim and I are in contact for about six months, three of which are going to be weekly 90 minute sessions. I do not ascribe to or make you go through anything, as kind of Tim was saying. Again, if you want to go there, I honor that, I'm happy to do that, some people need to do that. If you do not, that's okay.
Speaker 2:We've learned a lot in the past gosh forever and basically learned that hey, actually we don't have to go back to your childhood or back to wherever the original everything started for you to heal. You don't have to drudge through it all and retell someone. In fact, a lot of times that causes re-trauma, especially given the intensity of the military environment and often the trauma that's associated there. But if we can get you in the day, which that's it, that's that's a great start, right? How do I get in the moment, not ahead of it, which is anxiety, and not behind it, which is usually depression? So how do I get in the now, because that's where all of our power is, that's where all of our choices are, and really that's the only thing that we have.
Speaker 1:You know when you're bringing up going to therapy and when you're thinking about dredging up. That's my biggest gripe about going to therapy and it's and you know, here's the reality about therapies Like for years I I hopscotch from one to another trying to find someone to talk to who kind of gets it. And you know you go and you know sometimes I get like a 22-year-old kid who has no life experience and they're going through like the bargain basement questions. I know Well, it's like trying to elicit a response from me. Eventually I landed on like a 70-, 70 year old lady who she started off talking about zombies. Hey, you know what happens if you were in a mall and like there was a zombie. I'm like, okay, cool, let's do it, let's talk, but something that's.
Speaker 1:But it's hard to find a therapist and every time you go there you're dredging up your past, your trauma. Hey, let's talk about your childhood. Then the next one's let's talk about this and that. And you're like I don't want to go through this again. Mike, just give me some meds. You know what I mean, but that's the thing. So how does like? So what are we talking about here?
Speaker 2:How do you get into the prison? How do you shut it off? I mean, I don't know how deep you guys want to get into there and I mean this is one of the things. Right, so right. Traditionally, people know about three things and less. Nope, I'm not going to say that. I was going to call out a, a branch, but I'm not going to. So most of the branches of the military can can say yes, breath work right Is real, perhaps even meditation or yoga, depends on which branch. Some don't acknowledge those things.
Speaker 2:However, the thing we always start with is what I call pregnancy breaths, because it's just diaphragmatic breathing. But I call it pregnancy breaths because I'm a very visual person and I like to know how to know when something's working. So if you protrude your stomach out when you breathe, you're doing it correctly and what this does is it's an automatic shut off of your switching, just like that light switch from your sympathetic fight flight response to your parasympathetic calming response. Apologize, the dog is adding to this podcast right now. So breathing is always where we start, because you can't, as I've told Tim, you're going to get tired of me hearing say breathe, right, you can't do it too much. Every time. Somebody told me the other day, every time they walk under a doorway that's their breathe and, if nothing else, right, that's what they do. But there's tips and tricks I have that help you integrate them into your day.
Speaker 2:Because, let's be honest, most of the people I work with have numerous TBIs, have seen combat. I work with have numerous TBIs, have seen combat, have been in multiple tours, even if they didn't engage in combat right, and have been doing this for a very long time. So I'm a big person, a proponent. I do stickies. I've told Tim some change the lock screen on your phone for whatever tool that we're working on that week or whatever you can't seem to remember to do. So I have my own techniques, my own application that I'm working on, as you know, proprietary techniques.
Speaker 2:I won't go too much into that, but they're not your usual things, they're not things that you've heard, because what we beat to death are things like breathwork, meditation, yoga. Now, I do all three of those things. I'm not against it, just like I'm not against therapy. However, there's a point to which right, it's not great for certain populations and you'll still benefit from it, depending on what your need is. But the difference that I bring is that this program gets to the root cause. We usually in this world treat symptoms right. I can't sleep, take a pill, I'm too anxious, too depressed, take a medicine, and I am so not anti-medicine at all, but I am with Tim. I hope that it's something you use as a tool, as a resource that helps you be able to move forward, to learn how to bring regulation less anxiety, less depression, et cetera.
Speaker 1:The thing you brought up too is a lot of these techniques have been used in the past. Everybody's breathing, come on, but the thing is coming up with a different aspect of things. You can't keep going through the status quo. Well, that's the way we always do it. Send them to yoga, send them the therapy, give them some MSS SRIs. They'll be good to go. There's got to be something new, something cutting edge. And I'm not saying cutting edge has to be like you know the state of the art $10 million was put into the study. Cutting edge has to be like you know the state of the art $10 million was put into the study. Cutting edge can be just as easy as like you know what. We're going to do it this way to try something new and to clear your head.
Speaker 1:You know, I know, tim, I know your head was probably, you probably had this like this. I used to. Whenever I used to talk about it, I'd always consider it like a sponge in my head. It was almost like this sponge filled with black gook and like, as soon as I, as soon as I I got to a certain point where I'm happy or not happy, but where I'm not laying in bed for two days I it feels like that sponge is gone. It's like almost like you just pull this sponge out and you're like I should probably say it's more like an air filter, a dirty ass air filter that's filled with sludge. But once you get it gone, you get your clear head and you can talk and you're excited. I mean, tim, you're the way you talk about this. In a way you were excited and how you were. You're texting me about talking about this. It's something. It's a foothold into mental strength.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, and and I can elaborate on that a little bit, because and that's why I went into in the beginning the history of the treatment and stuff that I've been through, because I've been through a lot of it because I was obsessed, just like a lot of people, like when I, when I do something, I do it like either 100 percent or not at all, and unfortunately that was with alcohol, that was with a lot of stuff, you know. So it's kind of a double edged sword. But when I decided that I was like I have to get better, like I will get better, I will excel and I will become like the man that I want to be. My kids were a big proponent of that, because I want them to, you know, obviously have a father around. There's a lot of people that are not around anymore because they didn't make the decision that I did, and and so I was like I don't care what I have to do and I told Trisha this too. I was like, if you tell me that I need to stand on my head like an hour a day, that is what I'm going to do, because I don't. I'm so sick to me. Not making it was not acceptable. Like there was. It was I'm going to make it or I'm going to leave in a body bag.
Speaker 3:Those were the only two decisions and so and I said this on my, my Instagram at one point but even during a lot of the drown proofing and stuff, that's that's kind of the great equalizer. You can have a guy that's an absolute beast on the ground and then you put them in the water and he crumbles like the. The water is a great equalizer. That's where you really I mean, there's a lot of places you see the, the real character of people, but that's one of them is the water. And um, and in my, in my mind, I was, my why was so strong and my, my drive to succeed was so strong that it was like, because a lot of people shallow, are, blackout a lot and it's, and it can be dangerous, although we have people that are trained to deal with that stuff. But that's kind of the thing that scares people. They don't want to pass out underwater, they want to drown and so for.
Speaker 3:For me it was like, well, if I pass out and I die, I'm dead and I don't care, so whatever. And then if I pass out and I get resuscitated, that's just another opportunity for me to continue to train so that I can actually get through the training and accomplish my why, and so that's the sort of mindset that I came with like healing to like this is like, instead of quote unquote, going to war on deployment, like this is now my battlefield, and so it was like I don't give a shit, like what I need to do, like I will use every weapon to my disposal, to include medications, which I was like against in the beginning, but realized that if I really wanted to, you know, combat this, this new enemy, which was myself, you know, which has always been my enemy. I just didn't realize it until recently, you know, but I was going to use any sort of weapon or tactic or procedure you know, ttp, whatever that I could, in order to, uh, to crush myself, you know that that other side of myself and, um, and so, going back to having been through a bunch of stuff, I benefited from it. Not only did I do all of that therapy and stuff, but I also experimented with hallucinogens and did DMT, to great effect.
Speaker 3:The thing is, though, is a lot of people just like with medication. Just like with medication. They believe that DMT is like a magic pill that will fix you, and that is inaccurate. It is something that can help and do a lot of good, but again, it's just putting you in the space for you to do the work. And so, after having done DMT, that put me in a good space to then do this new program, which I think, oh my goodness, dude, something's knocking on my door. Hold on one second, it's okay, I'll fill it in. Hold on one second.
Speaker 2:It's okay. It's okay, I'll fill it in.
Speaker 1:You know, sometimes you have to take a pause. You know we were talking about psychedelics, we were talking about medication, we were talking about therapy and everything, and we're going to get more into that. And as you were saying that, I kept thinking. I'm like this is almost like a, it's almost like a task force. You know, you're getting every different service branch to take care of the problem. You're putting together like a joint effort. You know the, the Navy, the army, the air force, the Marines. You know one's medication, one's therapy, one's this, one's that. So, tim, let's go back on how we were, how you were attacking here.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and so the and the the point of bringing up DMT. Dmt is not to discount what it does, because it did great things to me or for me to include like helping me find God. So having spirituality has done a number for me as far as my support system. You know, we talk about also being like a multidimensional operator with mind, body and spirit. That was something I always like took care of my mind, body and spirit. That was something I always like took care of my mind and body, but never spirit. But without getting distracted, I'll go back. The reason why I was bringing DMT up was to say that, um, uh it, it isn't the magic pill Like I was, like I was standing before it's. You have to address this, uh, the core symptoms or the core cause of the symptoms that you're explained, uh, you're experiencing, and sometimes DMT can help with some of those things, but almost never will it like completely fix you. There's all these people that talk about how great DMT is and it is a very great thing, I think, and I think more research needs to be done for our veterans and stuff like that, but at the same time, like a lot of what you don't hear is the regression that happens after you get a lot of relief. It opens up a lot of doors, but you have to be willing to walk through them, Like, if you don't walk through the doors that it opens, it's not going to do anything for you. Which brings me to my next point, which is how bad do you want it?
Speaker 3:There's all these people that say that they want to, like, get better and they're tired the way that they, uh, they're living, but they're not willing to put in the work to actually do the things that are required to change, like who they are. Because, if you think about it, you have, you know, core, uh, core beliefs. Those core beliefs are, uh, you know, developed when you were like a little kid. You know it's uh, these, uh, what would you say? Uh, you got your core beliefs. That, you know, translates into, uh, thoughts and emotions, which translates to actions, then habits, and the habits are who you are. And so, if you, you have to. That's the whole. The whole thing about therapy is attacking all of that stuff.
Speaker 3:But the, the and that was what I always like, pointed people towards in the past not to not realizing that you could even bypass a lot of that stuff to attack a lot of these symptoms that are actually like what would you say, attacking your life or how you're living your life. But the thing is is it is going to require work and it's going to suck. To be completely honest, it is not easy and it takes a lot of humbling yourself and also just not being scared of the devil that you don't know. A lot of people get super wrapped up in like I live my life this way and it's horrible and I hate it, but this new way of living is uncomfortable, and so I'm just going to go right back to doing what I was doing and it's like, dude, you made a career out of being comfortable, being uncomfortable, right?
Speaker 3:We tell ourselves all this and this is part of the hypocrisy I was talking about earlier. You know, it's like we have these ideas, we have these mantras and things that we live by in our community, but we don't pull those mantras and those ideas cross different domains. It's like you know, for instance I think I said this on the last podcast was like it's like, dude, it's not weak to ask for support in CQB. You don't go into a room alone, you hold on it and then you call for support and when you get that squeeze, then you go in with your partner. Obviously, if you have to go in alone for whatever reason, then you do. But that's not what we teach in CQB and no one looks at anyone crossly. If they're, they're waiting for support.
Speaker 3:Yet people think that if they ask for help when it, when it comes to their mental health, that they're weak and it's like you see how that doesn't make sense. You see how that doesn't make sense. And it's the same thing with so many other things within our, within our community that I've been noticing a lot lately, and part of that is also the whole. Like you can put on a ruck and you can. You know, after like days of no sleep, and do like a 5K insert or something like that, and then you know, know, be on target for 48 hours or whatever, and then have to extra. You can do all this stuff with no complaint. You may bitch a lot about later and joke. You know, we, we do a lot of bitching in the, in the military, but you can go through all that without complaint. It's, and it's just part of your job party day, but then you can't open up to your friend because it's uncomfortable, it's like what you, what you know, like that's crazy to me and and so it's the same concept. It's it's being uncomfortable, but it's just in a different domain. And and it's like you, I feel like a lot of our guys, we're so target fixated on things and I think a lot of it has to do with the nervous system, dysregulation, because when you get super amped up especially when an extremist it's like looking through like a straw, you know your vision becomes super.
Speaker 3:What would you say? Well, just target fixated. It's just like looking down a very skinny hallway and you don't see the things that are on the side. And I feel like we're so amped up all the time. That's kind of how we start. Viewing life is like I said, there's these ideas that we espouse to each other, but we can't bring it to that next domain and I think it's because of that target fixation. We're living within a world of aggression and violence and it's hard to separate ourselves from that and look at other things, like being able to apply those things, those same lessons that we've always known to, like being a father or being a husband. It's like those things don't translate because it's different and it's not what we're used to, and a lot of that, a lot of that can be that. That can change. You just got to address the, the dysregulation which a lot of us don't even know we have.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I mean yeah that's the key right For me was like I can't stand people not knowing. If you know when you choose to do nothing, that's one thing. But my big reason is sharing again military wide, first responder. Wide is at least the ability to know. This exists because you guys know, you got to know your enemy. If you don't, well, you're going to get killed, right.
Speaker 2:So this is an enemy that people are not aware of, that we're not discussing enough. That's not common knowledge, that I totally see. That if you don't know about it, then eventually the dark days get darker and the finger pointing gets more internal rather than external and you say, okay, well, this just must be me Like, and I'm making my family worse, I'm making right, I'm making friends worse, I'm not the person I used to be, I'm a wuss, I'm a whatever. And then, of course, I used to be I'm a wuss, I'm a whatever. And of course then that ends very tragically. And it doesn't have to, because when your brain is firing over and over in the same ways, it's not firing enough in other areas which help regulate your entire system. So there's a lot of different components to this, but basically we treat the body and the mind as a complete system and apply the techniques. It is as Tim would say, it sucks. But, tim, does it suck more than what you were living in? That's my question.
Speaker 3:No, and what's funny is that's a good point, because it wasn't until I wasn't living that way all the time that I actually could see that there was a difference, because all I knew was how I was living. And uh, and then all of us, I mean, I remember pretty uh vividly, like just through some of the therapy, I, I, I apparently I'd never actually been happy in my life and um, and I, I had a a small bit of happiness and I, it actually made me angry because I was like, I was like Whoa, it was like uncomfortable, it was like I felt weak or like I didn't deserve it or something. When it hit me and uh, and I fought it. And so I'm seeing a lot of that, not to that degree now. Um, because obviously we're working through that in the program as well. Um, because obviously we're working through that in the program as well, but feeling okay with feeling is one Um, and then not only that, but then seeing the contrast of how I was living then and how I'm living now is crazy to a point where I almost didn't notice it until I was like, wow, I didn't have a huge crisis today where I completely acted inappropriately with my family or someone that I met, you know, at the grocery store or something you know, and cause, you know, she checked in with me.
Speaker 3:It was like, how are you doing? I'm like, oh man, like now that I think about it, like I didn't lose my shit today, which is pretty odd, you know. So, yeah, it's, it's wild.
Speaker 2:Yeah, in between the weeks, you know, I do text check-ins, right, because I want to know what's working, I want to know what's not. And it's kind of right, this is tailored. It's a program tailored literally to all of your things. What's what I call keep, like your three threats to thriving, is something we talk about during our initial session and kind of give me the landscape on what's affecting you the most and how do I then tailor all that we do around what you need. So it's very customized.
Speaker 2:And, hey, the reason why I share about every other day is like, hey, how are we doing? It's just simple. If you don't, if you're okay and you don't want to say much, or you want to ignore it, that's okay, that's your right. If you want to say you know what, I just don't quite know what's wrong. Or I tried this and it's just not going. Well, we're going to troubleshoot it a bit and I'll say, okay, well, let's try this and let me know how that goes.
Speaker 2:And I know exactly what Tim was talking about and it was a couple of weeks ago and he was like, oh my gosh, I didn't even know, I didn't even realize, which is amazing. It's how my quickly our mind forgets, just like stuff we used to just hope we would not feel, and then it's like change, though is so steady that you don't even realize you're in a new place until you go wait. Steady that you don't even realize you're in a new place until you go wait. I am right, like holy shit. I didn't just pop off at every person that I just passed going into. You know target.
Speaker 3:I don't know, um, yeah, yeah, and, and you, but you know who, did notice my wife, because obviously it's kind of like that, uh, that thing that, like you just said, like, like, if you, you're changing over time, you see yourself in the mirror every day. You don't notice the stark change, but someone that may not be around, like living in your skin with you all the time, is obviously going to to notice the change. And and that's something actually that I wanted to hit on a little bit more is obviously like, in all these programs and all these things, like that was one of the things with all the treatment I've been through, it's always so focused on me, the veteran, and not the spouse. And you know, my wife has had to support me, obviously through my entire career, but with all the crap that I brought along with that. And then after, and um, I remember her asking at one point like you know, cause, every treatment program or whatever that I did, it was always she would always be brought into the mix, but it was always like this is what you need to do to support him, this is how you, what you need to do, this is what you need to do. And she's like, when is it my turn? Because something that people forget is that, like, part of the whole issue is we don't switch off ever. So when we're at work, we come home and we bring that crap with us and the whole family suffers.
Speaker 3:So, although the veteran, yes, is traumatized or whatever and is dealing with all this stuff, so so it's the family, especially the wife, you know, and it's like, uh, that that that's one of the cool things that I was immediately like blown away by. Is that, uh, tricia's program also, can, you know, help the spouses. So my, my wife is also doing this at the same time I am, and, uh, which has been really cool, and so, and here's the thing, it's not just like Trisha said, it's not this cookie cutter program. Uh, it's very individualized. So she's doing different things at different times than what I'm doing because of, uh, you know our specific needs, um, and then we were able to come together for, you know, a like I don't, I don't want, it's like, I guess, to touch base on how each of us could support each other. You know, through what each of us are learning. I mean, you can speak to that, tricia, if you want, like describe that a little better.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So you know, I offer, you know, couples coaching as well, and what I at least like to do once, if not more, and again everybody's going to be different is to just see hey, how's this going in the actual home environment? You are going through this separately, like in a way that it's not together in the same session. However, obviously that's impacting the home. So kind of what do we need from each other? Obviously that's impacting the home. So kind of what do we need from each other? How do we help one another if we're open to it, to get the most out of this time and support one another in a united front, rather than, okay, you're doing your thing, which is cool, and in your treatment, okay, I'm doing mine, which kind of overlaps but is again tailored to my need at the time, type of thing.
Speaker 1:So where? So how does this work? So how did Tim reaches out to you and I mean is this yeah?
Speaker 2:So anybody can reach out to me. Um, it's stress a list at gmailcom literally stress a list and I have. If you're from the SOF family or SEAL family, I do have a nonprofit partner that will pay half of any SOF or their spouse to go through any one of my programs. I do have a specific SEAL nonprofit that has a different process and a bit lengthier one, but they still help support the program as well. If you are not soft or SEAL, I do offer the program to everyone. However, I do not yet have that funding help, but what I do offer is a payment plan that works for you.
Speaker 2:Literally. I want to make it very difficult for you to say no, I do not need everything at one time. However, I do have to pay my own bills to be able to do what I do. So really, my criteria is that you're willing to work and that you show up and we worry about the other things together at the time and you get a partner with me. It's not that I'm better, I'm not worse, it's just a partnership and we move forward kind of together. And again, it's forever changing the way your body interprets stress, because stress is actually not the issue. Stress can be very healthy, but the way that our body interprets it, of course, with trauma, is going to change over years and then over decades, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I have something to add on to that, because you know, especially from like a veteran community and maybe I know I'm not speaking for everyone, but I will say that I've seen this mindset is like we're so used to as veterans, getting stuff for free. Um, you know that it's like there. There will be people that will hear that it costs something and be out immediately and if you're one of those people.
Speaker 3:Yeah, if you're one of those people, you need to check yourself like immediately. And and and part of part of. I mean I know that I'm like ranting and it's cause I'm so fucking sick of dudes killing themselves. And I mean, I know that I'm like ranting and it's because I'm so fucking sick of dudes killing themselves. And especially recently, like it's, it's taken a super heavy toll on our community and it's not just Marsock, it's all over the military and it's bullshit.
Speaker 3:And it's like to think that some of that could have probably been prevented with a program like this. Or if, if this could be inserted into our training or things like that, which I'm already working on, trying to trying to get Tricia connected with people, because I know Marceau could really benefit from this in a number of different ways. And but if you have to pay for something, that means you have buy-in. I've done free things where it's like, well, maybe I just won't show up today or whatever, I got this thing going on. But it's like dude, if you paid some money, it's like, oh man, I better show up because.
Speaker 1:Tim, it's not just that, it's accountability and attrition. I mean the other thing too is and a lot of people don't like Tim, when you bring up the free thing, it's true, it's, it's almost like the sense of entitlement. Like you know, I served whatever one to 20 years, 50 years, but, tricia, this is your job.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:But it's just like everybody else, like Tim. You didn't just one day say, hey, you know what, I'm going to go sharpen a knife in my tool shed. I'm going to go sharpen a knife in my tool shed and I'm going to sell them. You put the time in, you put the effort in, just like you get all these degrees. You do all this experience. It's still, it's your experience. People are buying your experience. They're not buying snake oil, they're buying your experience and with it. And that's the thing is like yes, you will have to pay for something to get a benefit out of it. Not everything in life is free. We know that. You go, you buy a six-pack and you're going through six beers a night. You're going through two bottles of beer, two bottles of liquor a week. You're smoking, you're smoking weed. You're doing this, you're doing that. You're not productive. You're paying $200 a month to go do BJJ Uh, but then on top of that, you're still drinking and smoking and doing everything else. So you have to look at it as you. You're investing in yourself.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yep, and, and this is, I'll bring up, uh, one of my mentors, jason Knight. He's a master Smith, like a super good dude, like well-known in the knife community, super good dude, well-known in the knife community and he straight up says I mean knife equipment, it's expensive but it's not affordable, if that makes sense. A bottle of water is truly expensive. When you think about maybe not in the amount that you're paying for that bottle, but for what it is and how readily available it is, and what you're paying for that bottle, but for what it is and how readily available it is, and what you're paying for that stupid bottle, like that's super expensive. A $4,000 knife grinder is not expensive for what it can do for you. But the thing is a lot of people see that price initially and they're like, oh, I can't, I'll never be able to do that. And it's like, okay, well, do you have stuff in your house that you can sell? Because I know that and that may seem extreme, but like, for instance, I wanted to get back into music and it's like I got to ask myself how bad do I want it? I didn't have the money to buy the new guitar, but what I did is I had a bunch of extra wood that I was using for knife making. I sold a bunch of that wood and then I got myself a guitar. You know, I know a lot of veterans have a ton of ammo and weapons.
Speaker 3:It's like, if you, if it's like, right, if you, truly, how bad do you want it, man, like you know, do you like, do you want? We have this saying in marsauk, and I'm sure this is with recon and other places. I've just that's where I was, that's where I heard. It was the whole like, uh, you can either have a uh empty house full of paddles or you can have a family, you know sort of deal. And it's like a lot of that comes down to whether or not you have that empty house full of paddles or a family comes down to a decision and it's, it's the same thing here. It's like yes, it costs money, yes, is I mean, she's also willing to help you with a payment plan. So you have no fucking excuse.
Speaker 3:You know, like if, if you, if you want it bad enough and you want to keep your family and you want to keep your life and you want to have a good life and you want to actually be content. And here's another thing and you want to increase your performance and the things that you're doing currently. Because if you, if you're able to control the stress, you're going to be able to do more, and if that means that you have to sell some ammo or sell a rifle, then so be it, because it's not that expensive for how long the the the program is is and for what you're getting. I would pay like three times as much for that. Like, if that's what it cost, I would 100.
Speaker 3:Do it because I've seen the other side and I've had to go to fucking funerals because guys didn't. You know not that they didn't want to pay and that's why it happened. But you know what I'm saying like they, they didn't make the right decisions and it's like don't be the guy that sees that something costs something. And then you disappoint everyone because you're no longer around. You don't want to fucking pay a little bit of money. You know it's like own up, like take responsibility. We have a, we have a. What would you say?
Speaker 3:This is one thing that you know Tricia and I talk about a lot. We actually have a lot more control over shit than we actually think. You know we have this victim mentality and a lot of people don't like to look at themselves as victims. Yeah, they'll go back to the bottle every fucking night because they say, you know, they tell themselves they have these traumas they don't know how to deal with, and so I'm going to drink it away. It's like, dude, you're being weak. You know we talk about. We don't want to be weak. We don't want to seek help because that'll make us weak.
Speaker 3:No, you are a liability to the team when you're drinking like that because you're drinking away, you're trying to cope for something that you haven't dealt with. You're trying to lower, you know, cause that's what a lot of what the drinking is is. Not only are you trying to cope with the trauma, but it's also it's a depressant. You're so jacked up all day that it's a way to end the night, to calm down. That's what THC was for me for a long time, and I'm actually trying to back up a lot from that, because it's one of those things.
Speaker 3:I'm so spun up and so what would you say? Like worn out by the day, when the day is done, that I want something to just relax and it's like, well, if you do the work, you don't need that. And that's right there. That's the operative word. You don't need it. If you're telling yourself you need something, there's an issue, and all it really takes is some work. You know what I'm saying. And and all and all you gotta do is take that, that step forward and just make it happen.
Speaker 3:There's so many times that when we're on a team, you have your ops chief or team chief or your element leader or whoever say this needs to be done. You look at them like they're fucking crazy, because you're like what, how am I going to get that done? They're like figure it out And's all just that, excuses. So it's like do yourself a favor, like fucking sack up, because that's what we've had to do for a career, and do it one more time and help yourself. And it's not just you, it's all your friends. They're going to love it that you're still around. It's your family that's going to love it that you're not such an asshole all the time. You know what I'm saying. It's like, dude, this could really change your life, life. And all it takes is for you to make the decision and, if you want it bad enough, and to move forward and actually do the work.
Speaker 1:So well, that's one thing I want to say too is it's like, just hey, let's say trisha's system doesn't work, it works for tim. Take, take a step, a step towards something that's going to keep you out of the grave, it's going to keep you from drinking every night or doing drugs, or it's keep you from destroying your mind and keep you from destroying yourself, because it's the ripple effect, man, when someone kills themselves, it kills everybody around them in one way or the other. So I mean, yeah, granted, trisha has a great program out there, from what I understand, but do something, take that step and I always have a first free call, but do something.
Speaker 2:Take that step. You know, and I always have a first free call. I mean my first call. I don't care if that's the only thing you get. If I'm a pointer in a direction of something that might suit your needs better, if I don't think it's a good fit, I'm not going to be there. But you know, there is something we can all do, and if we're willing to be uncomfortable for a second which again, like Tim shared, you made a career out of you're uncomfortable whether you're calling somebody new or not, right. So why don't we actually try something that might give you some more life and some more oomph and actually some enjoyment? And if you think you don't deserve it, well, that's where we can start. You don't have to know that you do the whole program. You just might know I will make one call.
Speaker 2:Make it very doable, just the next step.
Speaker 3:Exactly Just like on a ruck or something. It's like you can't think of the entire distance, you literally only just like I talked about with my time and trying to get the kids to school just the next step, that's all you got to think about, and just take the next step, that's it.
Speaker 1:Well, you know, I'm really interested to check out this some more. Now, Tricia, let's get that website again. Let's get your website and your email.
Speaker 2:Let's get your website and your email Stressalist S-T-R-E-S-S-A-L-I-S-T at gmailcom and stressalistcom. I also have the training program that teaches all about nervous system dysregulation, because I realized, as cool as a reset program is, bigger problem is we don't know what's a problem. So let's do the training for leaders to learn what it is, how to identify it in our lower enlisted or throughout the ranks, and then we get preventative. So the way that I'm a different coach is I'm root cause and I'm prevention. So tack both ends and hopefully everybody gets to know this and gets again the option at least to do something about it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and just one last thing. But cause I I imagine we're wrapping up I just want to say sorry, I'm, I'm, I, just I want to shake, grab everyone by the shoulders in my community and like, shake them and be like. That's why I'm so like, ah, like in this podcast, because it's just frustrating man to see dudes go. I hate it.
Speaker 1:It's frustrating to be so far away and almost like we only have this type of medium. You know, it's so much of us like you leave the service and you're spread out. Yeah, you have text, you have phone, you have Zoom or whatever FaceTime, but there's nothing like that physical presence of being around someone and not having that sense of belonging.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Also, jason, I do offer this in a program, a cohort of four. It's a new option, but it again. It won't get you in person necessarily, but it would get you hearing and connecting right with other guys or whomever that is going through the same process. So, hey, if you want to try a cohort of four, let's do it. I'm more than happy to and same process, just in a group, and we also would have individual wellness plans that you work on the side by yourself, throughout, you know, throughout the weeks.
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