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The Protectors® Podcast
Welcome to The Protectors® Podcast, where the valor meets the storyteller. Hosted by Jason Piccolo, a seasoned veteran and retired special agent, this series is a must-listen for anyone intrigued by the courage and tales of those who pledge to protect us. Beyond the front-line stories of bravery and dedication, this podcast goes a step further, weaving in the perspectives of those who bolster and narrate the protector's journey—featuring a remarkable lineup including New York Times Best Sellers and acclaimed Hollywood actors.
The Protectors® Podcast offers a diverse array of voices, from those who wear the uniform to the authors and entertainers who amplify their stories. It's a unique blend that highlights not only the raw realities faced by our protectors but also how their sacrifices inspire the narratives we cherish in literature and film. Each episode is a testament to the interconnected worlds of service and support, bringing listeners an unmatched depth of insight.
Dr. Jason Piccolo is a retired federal agent, former U.S. Army Infantry Captain (Iraq 2006), and author.
Past Guests Include:- Sean Patrick Flanery - Andrews & Wilson- Mark Greaney- Stephen Hunter- Remi Adeleke - Florent Groberg - Clint Emerson - Travis Mills
The Protectors® Podcast
505 | D.J. Williams | On Storytelling, Publishing Trends, and Engaging Audiences
DJ Williams, a thriller writer, shares his journey from a Hong Kong childhood to a successful writing career, highlighting how global experiences and work in unscripted television shaped his unique storytelling style. He discusses his transition from being a fan of authors like John Grisham to creating his own narratives, and offers insights into the publishing industry, including trends in book formats and release schedules. Williams reveals strategies for audience engagement, the importance of industry connections for film adaptations, and creative approaches to content creation, such as developing story universe websites and incorporating unexpected elements like auto auctions into his narratives.
Make sure to check out Jason on IG @drjasonpiccolo
Hey, welcome to the Protectors Podcast. We're with DJ Williams today. It's going to be an interesting story. I talked to a lot of authors before, but DJ has a very interesting background, a little different background than normal, and I like to hear more about his protagonist and how his background kind of melded into this. So, dj, welcome to the show.
Speaker 3:Jason, thanks for having me on.
Speaker 2:I need to go back I'm on episode 500 or something now and count how many authors I've had on and how many of the same authors I've had on. I love talking about books. I love talking to authors because I'm, as a fledgling author myself, I like to learn as much as I possibly can about the different styles of different backgrounds of the authors, and you know, everything to me is like a learning experience. So, uh, yeah, welcome, man, welcome oh, thanks for having me on.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I love you know I. I think I was a fan before I even tried to write my first novel. So you know, growing up reading everything from john grisham to baldachi, now brad thor and jack carr, like I love the genre and so when I first started out, uh, I thought one day, one day I'm gonna write thrillers. But you know, I had. I had an interesting road getting there.
Speaker 2:I guess you'd say yeah, growing up for me it was like wb griffin, it was, you know, obviously, the clancy novels. It was, you know, the 80s and the 90s, and then, if you really go back farther, you had Mac Bolin. So you had all these different thrillers and types of thrillers.
Speaker 3:Well, you know, it was funny. During one of the interviews they asked me what's the first book you ever remember reading? And right away it flashed in my mind. I read Treasure Island, when I was like eight years old. How I got my hands on treasure island, I have no idea, but I was hooked. You know, once I I just sat I read it like straight through. It probably took me like I don't know a couple days back then. Um, but I read it straight through, man and I was. I was hooked. As a storyteller, you know I never. My career's evolved over the years where really storytelling has been a part of all of it. But uh, you know, I never thought one day I'd just be writing books, which is is really cool.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, I looked at your background and I was reading your bio a little bit and producing and being part of the writing process for TV shows. You know, even though some of it, a lot of, it's probably reality, but there is sort of a script in there. You have to write it up, you have to. The audience needs to be. You need to sell it to the audience so they want to watch it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you need to sell it to the audience, so they want to watch it. Yeah, you know, my, my main role in the TV business was as an executive producer and a director. So you know I I fortunately wasn't in the writing rooms to work 20 hours a day, but leading up to that, you know, I've done. I think I've done over, well, probably close to 600 episodes of television and a lot of it is unscripted but scripted. You know, to a point. And we actually found, you know, real quick backstory.
Speaker 3:I was raised in Hong Kong until I was 15. I traveled around the world since I can remember you know, to different countries and when I first kind of stepped into the entertainment space it was in the music business and then we were shooting documentaries and we shot documentaries in, like the Philippines and Zambia and some really really cool places, and I ended up becoming the GM of an entertainment company here in LA. So I've been exposed to all aspects of from the creative to the business, to how do you take a story from an idea and actually create something out of it. So yeah, the TV side was a little different because by the time I stepped in, everything was ready to go and my job was to make sure we got it on camera.
Speaker 3:You know kind of a funny story. We were in Zambia and we filmed a documentary. We were there for about three weeks and I'm a total city boy. I grew up in Hong Kong, I moved to Los Angeles, you know. So basically I'm not like you're not going to find me unless I'm working, trucking through like the wilderness somewhere. Well, and it's kind of funny because I am.
Speaker 3:I am a city boy but a lot of those kind of projects I get into we end up in these kind of places. And so we're in Africa. We had filmed this documentary. We were going to get like B roll footage of you know all the wildlife and stuff. And so my buddy says, hey, why don't we go to the Zambezi River? And I'm like, all right, that sounds cool, let's go. I have no idea what I'm saying. You know, get up the next morning. I have no idea what I'm saying. Get up the next morning.
Speaker 3:He's like let's go. We go to the airport, we get on a little four-seater Cessna. We're flying into the heart of Africa, jason. I'm looking out the window. We're seeing giraffes, zebras, elephants. I'm like this is crazy. So I said, hey, where are we going to land? Exactly out here here. He points out the window to like a dirt road. That's it right there. And I'm like you gotta be kidding me. Well, we land on this road, we go into camp and we're basically staying in tents on the zambesi river and my buddy who's?
Speaker 3:he's traveled all over and he's you know, this is like his second home and he's literally. Hey, if you're kind of afraid he goes, why don't you stay in the tent like? In my tent, in case you're. I said no man, I want my own tent. I'm a big boy, I want my own tent. About 2 30 in the morning, when it was all pitch black and I'm hearing animals roaming around outside, I'm like I'm such an idiot, I should have stayed in the tent Buddy right.
Speaker 3:So you know, long story short, those three days we were there we got to capture some incredible footage. We survived an elephant attack in the back of a Land Rover because we got too close, which I have it all on film. But at the end of that trip I thought you know, I'm going to write about this place one day. And at that point I really hadn't really dove into writing. You know, I've been producing, directing.
Speaker 3:you know those kind of things and you know I flew home. Life takes over, you get back into the rhythm of life and I kind of put it on the back burner for a while.
Speaker 3:And then, you know, maybe a couple of years after that, I thought you know what I'm going to do. It I'm not going to tell anybody. I'm going to write a novel. I'm going to see if I can actually pull it off. And so I sat down, took me about a year. I wrote that book on planes, trains, coffee shops, like anytime I had a spare minute, you know and I got it finished and I gave it to a friend of mine At the time she was the one of the executive producers on Law Order, svu, criminal Minds and CSI and I said look, read it. If it's not any good, the only people are going to know it exists are you and me.
Speaker 2:That's a good idea.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so she read it. She came back to me with notes, which every writer always has notes, so she gave me some good notes. I went back, I rewrote the manuscript and put it out, ended up doing a 15 city tour with Barnes and Noble, out of the gate, through a chain of events. And, you know, once I went through that process I was like this is what I'm made to do, this, this is what I love doing. I love all the other aspects you know of television and music and all that, but sitting down to write from a blank page to the end of a book like that is that's how I'm wired.
Speaker 2:So so what you know? I haven't read your books yet. You know we first got introduced on X or Twitter. Yeah, yeah. I'd really like to know what is your protagonist, what's the background?
Speaker 3:Well, the background for Chase Hardiman, the Auctioneer, is book one. It's his origin story. So Chase was a former Special Ops veteran. So Chase was a special former, a former special ops veteran, and you know he's kind of done a lot of covert missions. His buddy, dexter Thompson we call him Dax is his right hand. They come back after being in the Middle East for a few years to what he believes is going to be taking over his legendary father's auction business. So I wanted to take. One of my best friends was probably one of the world's best auctioneers in the collector car world for many years and he would tell me these crazy stories about the auction arena and what happens before and after and all the crazy deals that went down and I thought I want to create.
Speaker 3:I want to create a character that has that element but then also has elements of james bond kind of the the high high world, and then you've got like jack reacher, jason bourne, so it gets down and dirty and gritty and so I'm like, if I can create a character that encompasses all of that. So in the auctioneer we find chase and dax coming back from the middle east. He thinks he's taken over the family auction business but then someone close to him is kill and they're past. What him and dax had did when they were in the Middle East comes back to haunt them. And the auctioneer is all about Chase discovering who he's created to be as he navigates in kind of this high-end auction world and chases down a terrorist attack that is about to unfold. And then at the end of the auctioneer Chase has a choice to make.
Speaker 3:So when we pick up King of the Night, which is book two, we're picking up Chase and Dax about six months after the auctioneer and the choice he's made. Now it becomes evident from page one of King of the Night. Evident from page one of king of the night, um, where he embarks on a global quest for revenge after an fbi agent is kidnapped. So because of my upbringing and because I've traveled all over, it's jet setting you're in different countries, you're you know and you're not going to necessarily all the well-known spots in those countries.
Speaker 3:You're down in these back alleys and these other neighborhoods, and so it makes it interesting, because a lot of these places I've been, so I've actually, like, walked these roads, you know, which adds to the authenticity. You know, hopefully so. In king of the night you've got international intrigue, you've got political gamesmanship, you've got a formidable enemy who reveals throughout the pages, and it requires Chase and Dax to kind of align themselves with some shocking alliances. They uncover some devastating secrets, devastating Secrets. And then here's the crazy thing, jason, I finished this book, I finished writing it a little over a year ago. No-transcript. In the Chase Hardeman world, president Bouchard is the president of the United States. Right In King of the Night, president Bouchard is weighing whether to run for a second term and I'm like you know we see what's happening in today's climate I'm like whoa. So I wrote this like a year and a half ago with no clue a half ago, with no clue.
Speaker 3:I won't give anybody away, but I will say what happens with President Bouchard diverts from reality. And one thing I did because I've been in the entertainment business a long time politics is such a divisive thing a lot of times.
Speaker 3:I took President Bouchard and I made him a mix of both sides of the parties and so there is no favoritism, but it's more watching him have to make a choice with everything that's happened in his presidency. That started in the auctioneer, we see it unfold in King of the night and the relationship he has with chase, hardeman and dax. So all of it plays out and it's. It was super fun to write and the responses so far from some early endorsements and stuff have been good.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I'm excited well, now that you're excited let's say you you have the opportunity to be the next Terminalist or the next Gray man series on TV. Who would you want to play your protagonist?
Speaker 3:You know that's a tough one, because I know if I set my heart on somebody if I set my heart on somebody you know, I I really like. Oh, now his name escapes me. I mean he was in one of the Bourne movies. Mayor of Kingstown.
Speaker 2:Jeremy Renner.
Speaker 3:Jeremy Renner. I mean, jeremy Renner would be really fun and if you, if you pair him up yeah, I mean to me he would be ideal and a younger version of of matt damon, of course, the born series, you know it's always it's hard to do it because you know I've been in the room where you get your heart sound somebody and then, for whatever reason, it goes to somebody else.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I've done this a long time. So, uh, on just the the, you know that part of it. If the book ever got option, you know I would be happy just to be in the room. Odds are, a director, a director, the studio, they're going to have so many things in play. So I guess my answer to it would be I would just be happy if it got optioned and we moved it forward, which would be really, really a fun thing.
Speaker 2:That's what's funny about interviewing Mark Rainey a bunch of times is, like you know, gosling is in one of his movies and it's like man. Can you imagine, like you know, you get like an A-list star to be like?
Speaker 3:it would be. I mean, it would be incredible. It would be the funnest you know. I think it comes down like I've watched a bunch of interviews with Jack Carr and how he ended up connecting with Chris Pratt. It was through someone he knew that knew Chris Pratt. They were good friends.
Speaker 3:Everything I've seen over the years being in this side of the business. It's all relational. You talk to somebody who knows somebody, you show them what you have and if it, if it gets to the next stage, it happens like it's never. You're never like knocking doors down. If you're knocking doors down, it's probably not going to happen. So so we've got you know, I've got my film TV agent. So we're shopping a young adult series which I've been writing over the last couple of years while I've been writing the Chase Hardeman series. So once King of the Night comes out, we'll keep shopping the Hardeman series and see if we can get some interest.
Speaker 2:I like the idea of young adult books, books as well, because it doesn't seem like kids read as much as like we did. You know, it seems like everything is social media, these quick hits. They're not like they don't. It's not like they don't have imagination, but like when I read a book, I am like in that scene. I am there, I am, I am visualizing what the characters look like. You know, my imagination is running wild.
Speaker 3:You know what I've found the series. I've just finished writing the trilogy. The series is called Beacon Hill. I did 30 plus dates with Barnes Noble last year and so I was curious to know what kind of audience is going to show up in the stores. You know, and I was surprised that you've still got that generation is coming into a brick and mortar store. That's one thing.
Speaker 3:I surprised that second thing I was surprised, that is they like the hardcover books and they're into the audio book, you know, and so they love the audio books, but if they're gonna buy the print book, they want the hardcover because they want to collect the whole series. Yeah, you know, but I was surprised. We sold, uh, I did 30, like 30 plus dates. We sold out every author signing except the first one, which was easter weekend. I was telling everyone I can't compete with easter, you know, but I was. I was surprised, you know. I thought, I thought will, will teenagers and the young adults show up at a bookstore? Man, I don't, don't know, you know, and I was surprised. I think once they get hooked on a series, then they're all in. You think?
Speaker 3:of Harry Potter, you think of Hunger Games, you know so they're. They're kind of wired a little bit. You know, when you have those readers they're a little bit wired, like me. Like, if I get hooked on a series like jack carr right now, I'll read, I want to read every book as soon as it comes out. I want the hardcover, you know what I mean. Like because I'm gonna keep it. You know, I'm not gonna just put it away.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I interviewed meg gardner and it was, um, she did heat too, but I didn't realize it. I did not realize that she had her own series and all this other stuff. So I started listening to him and I'm like I just binged all four of them. I just, you know, I finally I just finished the fourth one and I'm like, as I'm driving to work, I'm listening to it and it's like, once you get into these series and when you find a new series, it's's like. It's like you found treasure.
Speaker 3:Yeah Well, and the thing that I'd say in the publishing world I'm new, you know I'm an, I'm like a newbie, you know, compared to a lot of other people. But it is the same way, like if you look at a series that are on, like the streamers the series are coming out quicker than a year apart.
Speaker 3:It used to be, every year they'd come out. Now it's coming out faster, and when we signed the young adult deal that was a couple years back, and then with the chase hardeman series going, uh, I've put, I've put out two books last year, there'll be two books this year and it'll be two books next year. So it's not even a year apart. Now Now they want them like nine months. You know, because they know once people jump in they don't want to wait for the next thing you know.
Speaker 2:One thing I'm doing now is I'm starting my own fiction book, you know, and writing that. But it's a lot different coming from writing nonfiction and writing articles and books that are nonfiction Because you know, you got the facts, you put them out there, you write, but with fiction everybody seems to have a different story. Some people outline them, some people write as they go, use their imagination, some get the cast of characters down and figure out hey, you know where do I go? But now that you mention it, you have to have two or three books in your head, or at least a synopsis in your head. When you're writing any book, you have to be looking two books ahead.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, I already know. So King of the Night comes out September 9th. I already know next September book three. I know what book three is already and I'm one of those writers you know everyone's like well, you have to outline some. I don't outline the books at all, like even the young adult series which was all this supernatural, other world stuff. You know I didn't outline any of it. I kind of I consider myself more of like a binge writer.
Speaker 3:So I'll picture what the story is. You know what's the opening scene, what's kind of the pivotal, pivotal moments. And once I can play that out in my mind and I start writing, now I'm chasing the story to the end. You know I'm not necessarily thinking. You know I need to map out the next 10 chapters. I'm chasing the characters, you know. And then once you get through a draft and you're going back through it, you're going to see what holes are there. You know you're going to see what characters you need to kind of beef up or you need to add different scenes. But because I write the chapters kind of like scenes in a film, you know I can write a chapter and then have the flexibility to shift things around when I get you know that first draft under my belt. But but for me it is, it's more of chasing you know, and some writers.
Speaker 3:You know they'll write every day at a certain time at a certain place. Like I'm, I'm a little bit all over the place, depending on if, if it's, if it's if you're in the groove then I'm not going to stop until you know I run out of gas.
Speaker 2:What's the hardest lesson you've learned, Like with writing?
Speaker 3:you know, with writing I think that I learned. I've learned two things, and it's it's always a habit for me is write the first draft and don't stop till the draft is done. Don't go back and edit, like I have a habit of you'll get, you know, 15 chapters in and you're like I'm going to go back and start editing. And Kyle Mills was one that I watched an interview with him and he was saying the same thing. I watched an interview with him and he was saying the same thing. He was just like force yourself to get all the way through to the last page and don't go back and fix anything until you've got that draft done, because then it's way easier to go back, fix the stuff that needs to be fixed, and you've kept your momentum going all the way through. And then the other lesson I've learned is there is a difference between the creative storytelling and the business of publishing? Yeah, there is it's.
Speaker 3:You know, once you're, once you're under contract and you've got deadlines, you know, I mean, if you're a bestseller you probably have a little more leverage on the deadline side. But once you're under deadline and you've got deliverables and then you've got all the marketing and all the stuff that goes in it, that's a whole other piece of the business that I'm still kind of wrapping my head around as we get into it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's one thing I'm not looking forward to.
Speaker 3:It's necessary.
Speaker 2:Well, I guess if I could write and make a couple bucks and it pays for me not to have a job in the morning, yeah you know it worked out better that way. But you know to get paid as an author is good luck, you know good luck with that yeah, I mean jason, here's what I, here's what I.
Speaker 3:Another part of this that I've learned is I've been traditionally published, so I've had book deals and I've indie published and you know the indie side's done pretty well. The amount of work for you as an author is no different from if you sign with a publishing traditional publishing house or if you indie publish. It's the same amount of work. You still got to write the book, you've got to go through the editorial process, make it as good as you possibly can, and then you have to do the marketing.
Speaker 2:Yeah. You're the marketer.
Speaker 3:Yeah, even with the traditional publishing sites. So you're still, if you're going to jump into that world, you're still going to have to do it all. I think that's the misconception sometimes, for for like new writers you know I've spoken at quite a few writer conferences and that's kind of the biggie is like, well, I just want to write, but I don't want to have to do all the other stuff.
Speaker 2:You got it. You don't have a choice.
Speaker 3:I mean if you're going to do it.
Speaker 2:Believe me, that's one thing I've learned about interviewing so many authors is marketing.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, the publicists get a hold of me and you get a hold of me and you got to be on these shows.
Speaker 3:Well, and if you're going to spend whatever six months of your life, a year of your life, writing a book and you know this is the way I look at it If I'm going to spend my time doing that and I feel good about the book, I love the characters, I love the storylines, I know where it's headed then I also want to do everything I can to get the word out when the book comes out. I'm just not wired that way to take my foot off the gas and say, well, we'll just see what happens.
Speaker 3:You know exactly you gotta be your own it's it's tough it's tough to be your own salesman sometime, but yeah, you know, like, look at, look at jack car. You know I've followed him since he first came out with the first book and what he's done in a relatively short amount of time is he's built a brand that goes beyond the books. He's still cranking out the books every year and he didn't leave it up to the publisher to say, well, I hope they make it a success. You know he kind of put both feet in and said I'm going to do everything I can to build this out. And you know he's also done it in such a way that there's you know, I've never met him, but everything I've seen with him, there's kind of a humility that comes along with it.
Speaker 3:That, I think, also makes him very likable, you know, when people get behind him and support him, which is awesome. So there is definitely a way to do it where you're not like hammering people over the head with, hey, go buy my book. That's like the worst thing you want to do. You want to bring people along for the ride and you know if they, if they, dig what you're doing, then they're going to, they're going to pick up the next one, you know, and that your job is make the next one better than the one before, that's you know anyway.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's my adage is just write, write write, edit later, just got to write.
Speaker 3:You know that's my. Adage is just write, write, write, edit later, just gotta write. You know that's my. I would say that's my biggest bad habit as a writer is I'll want to go back and edit and fine-tune everything as I'm going along and I just have to keep telling myself you'll do it later, get the story out of you onto the page, and then, when it's on the page, everything can be fixed. If it doesn't make it to the page, then you're constantly trying to get to that finish line, and I've talked with a lot of writers too. The other thing I would say is finish the stories that you start, because you know I've talked to so many writers are like man. I've been working on this book for five years.
Speaker 3:You know, it's like dude, at some point you got to get to the finish line, because what you're writing in here may not be relevant. You, you know, five years from now. So you've got to really push yourself through to the end. And then you know, find a great editor. And this climate I would say find a great editor. And then you've got to make sure the book cover is great Because 80% of the people that are buying the books they're seeing your cover as a little thumbnail in Amazon.
Speaker 2:And if it doesn't pop?
Speaker 3:then you're, you know, you're kind of you're, you're fighting an uphill battle you know.
Speaker 2:So what's next?
Speaker 3:You know. Next for me is I'm going to uh write the third book in the Chase Hardeman series, which I'm going to start in a couple of months. I'm currently writing a book right now which we hope will be a series. Right now it's going to be probably a standalone until I get it done. That one I'm trying to get done in the next month, so by mid-September, and then we'll start figuring that one out and then we're shopping two other series around to different publishers.
Speaker 3:We've got the Beacon Hill series that we're shopping for optioning. We'll take the Chase Hardeman series out. Odds are we'll take that one out in the new year because we don't want to do it too close to the holidays. So yeah, and then just you know, keep storytelling, man, that's what I love to do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love it, man. That's what life is about being creative. I mean you got to pay the bills, but you have to have a creative outlet. You have to. Yeah, I mean you got to pay the bills, but you have to have a creative outlet.
Speaker 3:You have to, yeah, and if you can find, you know, here's one thing I've also because of the tv side. You know you speak to a lot, of, a lot of people that are coming up. You know they want to be directors, they want to be producers, they want to be, you know, but what they don't realize is sometimes you have to get your foot in the door, maybe not doing exactly what you want to do, you know, with the idea that down the road you can work your way into a spot. So you know, and that's kind of what a little bit of my direction on the TV side was. You know, I thought I I was going to write scripts because I can write those pretty quick. And a buddy of mine called me up and he said hey, we're going to shoot a show. Why don't you come direct the first batch of episodes? And I was like I've never directed before. And he's like man just come and do it, just do it.
Speaker 3:Just do it. So that's what happened. I flew out to Indiana, walked on the set. The crew was there. They're like, derek, where do you want us to start? And I'm like that's a really good question. So I learned on the fly. We ended up doing 10 seasons of that show. We had a great crew. I was smart enough To know that when you're in a room with guys that have way more experience than you, it's good to listen, you know before you start trying to tell everyone what to do.
Speaker 3:So I listened a lot, I've learned a lot to COVID, my production company. We had come alongside other producers and we had put together I think we did about 12 different show developments and like pilots and stuff. And so you know, I've been in the room, I've pitched the shows, like I've done a lot of different pieces of it, but I'm still constantly learning and I kind of feel that way with the, with the writing side, for the books is King of the Night is my favorite book, you know, because it's the latest one I got finished. I feel like I'm becoming a stronger storyteller as the books are done. So that that part of it to me you know apart from you know selling books and all that kind of stuff that part of it to me is if I feel like I'm still constantly growing as a creative, you know, and as a storyteller, then it just, it makes the whole thing so much more fun to do hey, welcome to the world of podcasting and TV and everything.
Speaker 2:Right, I mean, that's the reason I do all this stuff, because I just want to keep learning as much as I can, and that's why I love having people. That's, you know, a very um. That's the reason I started the show. I wanted to learn something, and I'm very selfish when it comes to that, but then I'm like I want other people to learn something too.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well it out. But then I'm like I want other people to learn something too. Yeah, well, and people tune in and you know the guests you've had on, it's like they have their own audiences. That will tune in and they'll. You know there's something they probably haven't heard. You know, because you interview differently than other hosts would interview you like. Each show has a different vibe, so then people hear stuff they may not have heard on on something else. So it's, it's very, very cool yeah, you know that's.
Speaker 2:One thing I wanted to ask you about is tv. So I've been on air, I've been on like court tv, like 120 times already mainstream tv all the time haven't got paid a cent for it. But taking that next step, you know and nowadays it's tough to get paid to be like an expert consultant yeah but I'm like man, I've built up a hell of a damn resume of of appearances yeah, a lot of times they look at that.
Speaker 3:Well, you know, like, if you look at reality tv minus the, you know the, the kardashian phenomenon, you know, uh, a lot of times people think, oh, you're on reality tv, you know you're making a bunch of money and all that for, like, yeah, the cast really what it is. For them it's exposure yep and so they're willing to do it, you know, for scale or whatever, just because, you're going to see them every week for, you know, 12 weeks 16 weeks, whatever it is, and and then you know they leverage that.
Speaker 3:Uh, you know, build out their brand and everything else, but but yeah, I mean it's and in today's climate it is tough, because I feel like, like you know, streaming for one has completely changed the movie business oh, yeah, yeah. For sure, and I think for television, the biggest challenge they have now is you know, you can reach an audience on X or, you know, Instagram Live or whatever. Like there's ways for you to reach a broad audience.
Speaker 2:Well, that's what's funny about it too is because, like pre-covid, you would have to go to a studio, like they would. You know the book would get a hold of you. You'd go to the studio in the morning and record. Nowadays it's so used to like I've. I've recorded so many episodes in my basement, in my little studio, compared to like having to go anywhere well, remember before code every time they would go to like a special guest, like everything was lit perfectly.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, everything. It was all produced, produced, produced. And I think when covid hit, obviously, and you know, even now, like that's a, that's way more loose than it used to be now, now it's literally it's like someone's got their iPhone and they're in their car and there's like no audio.
Speaker 2:They don't even care about audio. It's like the guy's driving down a highway and they're talking to him while he's like on his iPhone in one hand and he's like yeah, man, you know, I saw the UFO and UAP, and then you know this and you're like, and everybody's like okay, you have the echo happening.
Speaker 1:They're like in the drive through, they're like hold on a second, oh yeah.
Speaker 3:But I think that's, you know, just the bigger scheme of of reaching people. I think that has changed everything you know and I even think, like I did an interview the other day, we're talking about kind of the book side, you know. Uh, I think for authors it also changes how you reach your audience, you know, apart from just the books. So take, you know, jack carr, for example, with terminal list, you know, with the series and all that he's kind of like at the top of his game, but say you're an author, that you're writing a series and your books are coming out every nine, ten months. You've got to be able to reach your audience in between that time You've got to build your brand.
Speaker 2:You've got to keep building the brand.
Speaker 3:Well, and what do you create? You know so. So one of the things that that I've thought about, even for the the chase hardeman series, is, in between the books, writing short episodes that are exclusively online. You know, and it's in between, you know, book three. All that and I think that's what part of what publishing is trying to figure out is how do we get the authors to not only write faster but create more content.
Speaker 2:That they can put out in between to keep readers. Well, you think it would be a really cool idea now that you brought that up, and I should trademark this is you have novellas and they're cool. You know their own, their own stan lohn story. But you know, I think of mark rainey and I think of his protagonist. All of these protagonists need to keep up to date on their tactics and techniques and and everything.
Speaker 2:They need to be sharp yeah you't, and I wrote an article about that today. I always write about shooting because I'm a firearms instructor, but you always have to keep sharp. It's not like riding a bike, so you always have to keep proficient. So let's say you have the gray man and in between his books he's like he writes a 10-page thing about hey, you know what court's at the range today? He he's like he writes a 10 page thing about hey, you know what Courts at the range study. He's using this and he does this. And you know he drives up to the range and he gets out of these zeros, you know anything like that.
Speaker 3:You know, like he's.
Speaker 2:he's got a, he's going to training, so he hires a professional sniper to teach him how to you know, zero in and do this and that.
Speaker 3:Well, it's, yeah, that like that's a great idea.
Speaker 2:You know the other you know what dj we might, we might need to. You know trademark you better get that thing I better write my book and get that done oh man, well, there's that.
Speaker 3:And then I've also I've also thought about you know how many of the characters you can't dive into completely in the novel. Oh yeah, and you could take those. You can take one of those characters and you follow a whole storyline that parallels and leads up to whatever the next book is going to be. But it's more episodes. It's like writing episodes versus even a novella.
Speaker 3:It might be writing like you get five chapters and five chapters come out at a certain point of time for you know X character, because I think that's going to, that I think is going to have to happen, because our attention spans are so much shorter and like when we go on Netflix or we we go on amazon prime, we want to watch the whole season we don't want to watch one episode no not at all every week, you know we want to binge and I think you've gotta, once people get through, say king of the night.
Speaker 3:You know, if people read king of the night, they're gonna be saying, well, where's the third book? Well, there better be something well, here we go.
Speaker 2:Here's another thing. You know you're the TV producer, so you have Chase and he's proficient with firearms and he's going to go to training. So what you do is you find anybody you know the six foot two male. You're not going to film his face as long as he's back and you're going to show them shooting at the range. You're going to show them zeroing in the rifle and instead of like a commercial type thing, it's going to be 10 minutes and it's someone teaching him how to do something for him at the range and actually like really shooting the bullets yeah, Really getting down and getting dirty and stuff like that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and going. You know, the other part of that too is going to uh. Michael connelly did this for uh, what was it? Nine dragons. When he wrote nine dragons, I mean this is an extreme example. But he went to hong kong because that's where part of the story happens, and film just him walking the streets yeah you know. So, even if you're, you know wherever your story takes place.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's the thing, is your protagonist your next book, cause everybody does it. Brad Taylor is always traveling all over the world, but you walk it and you video it Like you're the protagonist scoping out a meat location? Yeah, totally. I think we're onto something here, DJ.
Speaker 3:Well, jason it's, I'll tell you. I'll tell you a funny story. So the Beacon Hill series, which is a young adult series, we shot a documentary when I was writing book one and we put the documentary out as these short, like three-minute episodes and then we cut like a 40-minute kind of all-in documentary version of it. And the funny thing was is about 80 of that documentary was shot with iphones oh, wow so because everyone's like. You know you have a production company. Of course it's going to look this way, blah blah, blah blah.
Speaker 3:And I'm like, well, here's what's funny, here's the stuff we shot with the gear and then here's everything else we shot just with our iphones and you know, using filters and different things on post in post-production. You know you can't tell the difference. And so one thing I try, and you know, like this idea that we're talking through is like one thing I've tried to tell writers when we've talked about like branding or marketing. One thing I've tried to tell writers when we've talked about like branding or marketing is when you have this, when you have your phone there's so many things you can do.
Speaker 2:You know it just comes down. You know these iPhones, you know you throw it on cinematic mode and you're like, damn, that looks good. I mean and everything is made for this screen too. That's the thing is everybody's going to be watching the content on this screen. Yeah, so as I I write, you know what I'm gonna do. As I write this, this fiction book it's based primarily in the us, anyway, and as I travel, I'm gonna I'm gonna take a whole bunch of b-roll yeah, you should.
Speaker 3:You should because that just you know. You always look for ways and I, you know, I do the same thing always look for ways to pull people. Do the same thing always. Look for ways to pull people into that world, the world you're creating. How can you pull people in deeper into that? And then creating content for Instagram or X, keeping in mind those are different formats, different people are in those different arenas. So it's not like you're, you can't expectant on the author to create all of this like to create the trailers to create.
Speaker 3:You know all this extra content that goes along with the book. It's going to fall to the author to be like. Well, here you figure it out. Look at the books in the stores.
Speaker 2:Yeah. You've got to create the creative you know, I think we just came up with something. I think we're going to be. It's going to be becoming the protagonist, and that's another thing you could do. Your protagonist starts off special forces, but how did he get there?
Speaker 3:Yeah, oh, it's all the backstory.
Speaker 2:I mean, that's the well, that's, I mean you do the video content of it, these little short stories, and that's one thing. I mean mark rainey did it with, um, uh, jesus book, echo, god, I can't remember the name of the book, it wasn't that long ago, um, but it was like a backstory book. You know, modern and backstory, yeah, but in between the books you have a short story about like when they were a child becoming the protagonist yeah yeah, there we go, and then we have like I would say you even take it a step further, where you know every author's got their author site.
Speaker 3:I think you know you want to build out a site that is all about the story, Because I've definitely thought a lot about, like Chase Hardiman, building out a site that is strictly all the story, you know what you're saying you know the like you click on the map and you're like, oh shit, he was there.
Speaker 3:Yeah, or you know Chase's story with his dad. You know we don't get deep into it in the origin story, so you can always go back and see what was that. What was that like? How did that shape him when he got older?
Speaker 2:Well, it's funny because the auction thing is because before I went in the Army, when I was a kid, my dad ran a wholesale auto business, so I'd be at the auction every week, at the car auction every week and in New York area Skyline Auto Auction out by New York City in Jersey All these different auctions. But the characters in these places and back then that the Saudis and everybody used to ship the Caprice classics because they would so they would pay three, four grand over book.
Speaker 2:So all these people are running around looking for Caprice classics, but the characters that are in these auctions are like unbelievable. And this is before I meet them and all the other ones. This is like the old down and dirty auctions yeah, well, this is.
Speaker 3:You know, that's what got me hooked on this in the beginning was my buddy hearing the stories you know from his dad and his grandfather to him. You know my buddy telling me these stories so much crazy stuff. Where you're like this is you know it's to me in the books.
Speaker 3:It ends up being uh you know it could add to the drama, or it could be moment of comic relief where you're literally like you know, this deal goes down, that gets chase and dax what they need, but it's one of the most outrageous things in the world and you're like it actually did happen. You know the names of people would be amazed at the shit that happens out there. Oh, my gosh, I am.
Speaker 2:I did this detail like outrageous things in the world and you're like it actually did happen you know the names of people would be amazed at the shit that happens out there. Oh, my gosh, I am. I did this detail like back in 2011 where I worked at the camden high intensity drug trafficking group and my buddy. It's like I'm not going to get behind a lot of this stuff but importing cars that happen to have tons of coconut from other countries. It's just there's so much stuff that and you know, a lot of it is auction based. A lot of it is like they use these auction cars and, yeah, I had a my.
Speaker 3:I called my buddy one day and I just hear all this yelling in the background and I'm like what is going on? And he's like he goes hey, hold on. So I'm waiting. But I'm still on the line and I hear him and he is auctioning like a maniac. He is talking so fast and he's like I think they were auctioning like a camaro and he's like you know, we're at 100 grand, 100 grand.
Speaker 3:And he's going up and he's like and we got dj williams on the line and he's bidding 120, 120 nope, you're not bidding anything, but you know what is the game man so he just keeps going and going and going and they landed like I don't know, it's like 130, 135 or something and he's like sold for 135 000. He goes dude, I'll call you right back. And he hangs up. He calls me back like five minutes later. He's like that was awesome. And I'm like dude, what happened? What if no one outbid?
Speaker 2:me.
Speaker 3:Yeah, he's like it's like it's okay, it was one of ours well, you know what's crazy is like with the auctions nowadays.
Speaker 2:So back then it was tough for a civilian to get into an auction. But now Mannheim Auto Auctions one of the biggest auctions out there. They do almost all the wholesaling. It's an online but you could bid online now. But the problem is you're going to have a wholesaler sitting with a retail customer in their office bidding on these things. So even in the auctions as're not getting as a dealer you're not getting good deals anymore. You're almost better off getting deals from trade-ins and stuff like that. But the auction business is so different than it was back 20, 30, well, 30 years ago now.
Speaker 3:So much of the deal-making happens even before the auctions. They're already talking to customers and everything months out, and so by the time they get to the auction, they already know okay, whatever's coming out, if it's a Mustang GT or whatever, they already know. Here's the three guys that are going to be bidding on this, and so they zone in on those guys. And they just get it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because the cars are there two, three days ahead of time. So you're out there in the parking lot You're looking to see if they're clean. You know you're seeing if they're straight. I should say because some of the auction business man, you got to check everything.
Speaker 3:The gum I mean, it's, I'm sure I mean it's, I'm sure they ended up finding one of the stories he told me, they ended up finding like a million little over a million dollars worth of cars in like this farm, this farmhouse you know they were. They were actually auctioning the property and so they took a walkthrough and they open up this farm door, you know like a barn door, and they're like wait a minute. And all of a sudden it went from just like a normal auction to okay, I think we just found something you know. So kind of the fun thing about writing the series is Chase is that he's like the deal maker on all sides, you know, and the kind of deals that show up there.
Speaker 3:Obviously you know you amplify everything, but you know, you're already starting with like some crazy stuff, and then you amplify that experience and you're like man, this is wild. But that's what makes it fun to write. Write because you have the espionage side, you've got kind of the covert side, but then you have this crazy auction world. That kind of ties together everything you know.
Speaker 2:You just peaked something I never thought about until this moment and, coming from law enforcement and all the other stuff, I didn't think about it. But imagine, you know people think go to the casino, go here and there to launder money. But think about a car auction. These suckers are going for 30, 40 grand a pop and like you were saying like eh, you know, you don't know who's buying on the other line. You know it could. It could be a Confederate, just a man. Can you imagine money laundering going on through these? I can't.
Speaker 3:I mean, and think about, you have car auctions, but I mean, there's guys that auction.
Speaker 1:I mean, they auction islands, they auction, I mean, just think about where all that rolls through.
Speaker 2:What a way to clean money, right, if you're in the illicit business, oh Christ. So here's what. Let's just recap this before we get going here. So now we're gonna have a website and the website's gonna be your protagonist. Like building out the protagonist, we're gonna have a whole social media, you know, a social media account for your protagonist yeah, I mean, that's another you know, like me, I every morning, before I go to work, on my first coffee, so they're gonna get the coffee in the morning.
Speaker 2:So you're following your protagonist, but all you're doing is you're seeing their hand. You're seeing, like, what they're viewing? You're not seeing them, maybe once in a while like a quick flash in a mirror, and but it's only so brief. You can't see them. But you have a whole social media life for your protagonist jason, I think we're giving authors way too many good ideas I know we need to like we're like hold on a second you know. Hey, we're trademarking this man. I'm getting a hold of the patent office tonight.
Speaker 3:I mean, to me it's the you know, if you're really going to build it out, if you're going to write a series for the long haul, then you know it's totally worth it. Plus it's you know, it's just fun, like if you love your characters, your writing, like doing that kind of stuff, ends up being really fun to do and it's's a lot of.
Speaker 2:It's so much more doable now. Now let's see how many, let's see who, who comes up with a social media account for their protagonist, who has the website wherever their protagonist is and and who's doing like little, like paragraphs about like their protagonist going training tomorrow.
Speaker 3:There's a james reese account that I'm gonna jack.
Speaker 2:Car's been watching that is so funny well, brother, I appreciate you coming on. We'll have to have you back on. I think you're gonna probably have to roll into the co-host seat here too, and we have some authors on, so oh, that'd be fun anytime, man, just let me know, jason, thanks.
Speaker 3:Thanks for getting behind the series and for letting me come on and talk. That's, it's been fun anytime.
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