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The Protectors® Podcast
Welcome to The Protectors® Podcast, where the valor meets the storyteller. Hosted by Jason Piccolo, a seasoned veteran and retired special agent, this series is a must-listen for anyone intrigued by the courage and tales of those who pledge to protect us. Beyond the front-line stories of bravery and dedication, this podcast goes a step further, weaving in the perspectives of those who bolster and narrate the protector's journey—featuring a remarkable lineup including New York Times Best Sellers and acclaimed Hollywood actors.
The Protectors® Podcast offers a diverse array of voices, from those who wear the uniform to the authors and entertainers who amplify their stories. It's a unique blend that highlights not only the raw realities faced by our protectors but also how their sacrifices inspire the narratives we cherish in literature and film. Each episode is a testament to the interconnected worlds of service and support, bringing listeners an unmatched depth of insight.
Dr. Jason Piccolo is a retired federal agent, former U.S. Army Infantry Captain (Iraq 2006), and author.
Past Guests Include:- Sean Patrick Flanery - Andrews & Wilson- Mark Greaney- Stephen Hunter- Remi Adeleke - Florent Groberg - Clint Emerson - Travis Mills
The Protectors® Podcast
516 | Frank Larkin | Unseen Wounds: Addressing Brain Trauma and Building Support for Veterans
Frank Larkin, a prominent advocate for veterans and their families, joins us to unravel the pressing issues of brain trauma and veteran suicide. Through his personal journey, we explore the complex realities facing those who have served in conflict zones over the last two decades, highlighting the unseen wounds of post-traumatic stress disorder and moral injury. Frank candidly discusses his own heartbreaking loss, sharing the story of his son Ryan, a Navy SEAL, to underscore the stakes involved and the vital need for increased public awareness and comprehensive care.
Make sure to check out Jason on IG @drjasonpiccolo
Hey, welcome to the Protectors Podcast. As usual, we started having a conversation before we hit record and we were starting to get into really good topics. Frank has so much to say today and so much that I'm absolutely behind his message. And the message that we're going to be talking about today is brain trauma, blast waves, veteran suicide and keeping this in the public's consciousness overly over, as in Iraq and Afghanistan and in Africa and beyond. But there are still soldiers out there, there are still sailors, there are still Marines out there, service members out there right now on the front lines, and they are also subject to enemy and combatant fire and IEDs and explosions. And there is. We have 20-something years, frank, 20-something years worth of wars, and we have 20-something years, frank, 20-something years worth of wars and 20-something years worth of soldiers, sailors, airmen, marines out there that have suffered from so much, that are still suffering to this day, and we need to raise awareness to this.
Speaker 2:So, Frank Larkin, welcome to the show.
Speaker 1:Thank you, Jason, Jason pleasure to be with you and certainly have an opportunity to have a conversation with your listeners about these important areas that continue to challenge our society and certainly our veteran and first responder population. It's the whole. I always lump everybody into the protectors. There are always protectors out there no-transcript.
Speaker 2:I mean we're, you know you alluded to the fact that we've been, you know, for the past 20 years, you know, in conflict and just because the war is maybe over on paper, they're not over for those that are still suffering the invisible wounds of those conflicts. And it's, you know, the 20 plus years of activity Iraq, afghanistan, africa, other points of conflict around the world, let alone our own domestic. You know, fronts have left a debris field that will stretch decades behind us and in our effort to try to understand this, and certainly the, you know, untenable rates of suicide that we've been seeing in these communities, it is creating a real national security challenge for not only our military but also for our first responder cadre. And you know, every man and woman that we lose to suicide or to you know these conditions, and I describe invisible wounds as those that really make up this complex rubric of post-traumatic stress disorder. You know, from encountering, you know, some pretty nasty stuff moral injury, which we don't talk much about, and that's really the you know we raise our kids to. You know, value life, respect each other, follow the rule of law, and then you know that's not necessarily how society. You know, or or should I say other parts of the world, you know, look at life. Other parts of the world, you know, look at life.
Speaker 2:And so a lot of these veterans, you know, come home and our first responders from their shift, you know, burdened with these experiences. You know things that they've seen, seeing, things that they've done and unfortunately they don't feel like they can talk, you know, about these experiences with anyone, because our society has become so judgmental and it's quick to label. And then I'd say the third thing is that they're all in pain, whether it's physical pain, emotional pain, spiritual pain, and then they look to go numb that pain and very often that's when you see alcohol and other, whether it's prescription or non-prescription drugs come in to try to help them, you know, get through their next shift, to help them kind of recover from, you know, some of these bad experiences, or just their effort to try to get to sleep at night and not have nightmares and other. You know issues that you know most of our society is really not, you know, confronting on a daily basis, not like these folks are, as it comes about from exposure to our weapons systems that have gotten more powerful, more intimate in the recent years, exposure to controlled explosives, we're using a lot more breaching charges to blow through doors and walls and so forth. Certainly that was the case in Iraq, afghanistan, dealing with the thick cloth walls and these you know tough alleys that we had to navigate through. And then, of course, the main weapons system that our enemies have employed against us were these improvised explosive devices, which you know were responsible for over 80% of the casualties we saw in both of these formal conflicts.
Speaker 2:So it, you know, it all comes together into this rubrics, rubric, cube. You know that. You know this Gordian knot that we're trying to unravel here and really highlight that. You know it's not all mental and and that there may be a biological injury. You know, uh, that may be underlying this, but we're very much handicapped by the fact we can't see it. It sits at the microscopic level, beyond our current medical technology, beyond our imaging and blood markers to see and qualify this. So so, you know, as far as the medical enterprise goes, if they don't see it in one of these tests or on some imaging display, it doesn't exist and therefore, that's when you start seeing everything default towards a psychiatric, mental health diagnosis, and that's usually followed by, you know, a stream of drugs to control or deal with the symptoms and other behavioral issues.
Speaker 1:Man, there's a lot to unpack here. There is so much that goes on in our brain that's beyond just the moral injury. When you do bring up the blast waves, you do bring up the um, the ids, you bring up just a breaching, imagine your brain is I mean, listen with there's a, there are concussion protocols, for you know, my son's in high school plays football. There's always concussion protocols, so some even just one hit now when you're talking about your brain is exposed to something that's even beyond the concussion, something that's going internalized through your skull and just shocking your brain, is exposed to something that's even beyond the concussion, something that's going internalized through your skull and just shocking your brain back and forth. There has to be something there it can't just be based on moral injury that's causing this disruption in the brain.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're exactly right. We focus on and as a paramedic that's practiced or been licensed for over 45 years, I've done it in the military. I'm still practicing on the street in my city as a paramedic to help them deal with their paramedic shortage. But I'm seeing this every day that I work. A shift Is that our current medical enterprise.
Speaker 2:Were they knocked out? How long were they knocked out? You know how long were they knocked out?
Speaker 2:It's interesting I may get to an accident scene where I have somebody unconscious with an obvious head injury that by the time we get them packaged up and moved to the hospital they regain consciousness and you know they may not be totally with it. You know en route to the hospital. You know en route to the hospital, and then we get them into an emergency department treatment bed and they fully regain consciousness and their awareness. So I'm trying to then try to advocate with the medical staff there that, look, you have to understand what we found at the scene. You know this person was unconscious or the forces that they were subjected to are substantial that we need to pay attention, that they may have an underlying brain injury. Well, again, the docs are probably going to send them off for an MRI or a CAT scan and if that comes back negative, they kind of write that off, when in fact they're maybe very and based on the physics of what they've just went through, they probably should have a brain injury.
Speaker 2:But, it's not being qualified because we can't see it.
Speaker 2:And so this parallels to not only our military operations that we've seen, where we've assessed, at least during the period of war and conflict, that over 80% of this exposure came in the training phases as opposed to combat.
Speaker 2:Now it's probably about 100% of that exposure because we're not in an active conflict for the most part. And then same with law enforcement and in our fire EMS they're constantly being subjected to having their heads rattled and as we see with the professional you know at least football and some of the professional sports that have gotten a lot of attention about the CTE, the chronic traumatic encephalopathy very much a different injury than the blast exposure that we're talking about, but yet shares the same challenge that we can't see it in a living person because it's this injury is residing at the microscopic level. So we've got a long way to go. We need to leverage the science, we need to do good science that helps to inform on what we're dealing with and then be able to navigate forward with appropriate treatment, because right now we're shooting way behind the target and I think this is, you know, has a direct connection, in my opinion, to the levels of suicide that we're seeing in my opinion, to the levels of suicide that we're seeing, when you think about the optics of this.
Speaker 1:So let's talk about the post-9-11 cancer. We talked about the burn pits, myself having the particulate matter in my lungs and having to get a scan every year, and just a basic scan, and it's hard to check and see what's in your lungs because it's so microscopic. Now you have such a large audience, you have the public behind you, you have John Stewart, you have everybody and her brother talking about the toxins that cause cancer from 9-11. But now we have the long-term effects of IEDs, of blast exposure, that may not get the public's attention until it's too late, and in a lot of cases it has already been too late. Now how do we get this in the public's eye? Now, I like the fact that you're involved with this because you have the background in it and we'll talk about your personal background in it, but your professional background.
Speaker 1:You were in Iraq Was it Jaido? Right In 2007 and plus, and I was there around the 2006 timeframe with CJ Sotiff and there was so much counter-IED action starting then. In fact, one of my really good buddies that's been coming on the show a lot is Daryl Hornbeck, who is retired EOD, and I've seen that his friends and so many of his colleagues have been devastated by IEDs and I don't think people could really factor in the effect IEDs had back then and have continued through the war, because the war has been. You know, we've been away from Iraq for a long time as a mass and we're not seeing the everyday soldiers getting hit and wounded by IEDs, but those same soldiers that were over there a decade ago and plus are still suffering from the effects of the IEDs and explosions. No-transcript have in one way or the other been affected by IEDs and explosive devices and breaching and and gunfire and small, uh, small unit gunfire I mean.
Speaker 2:I think one of my greatest frustrations that I've experienced is as we try to promote this discussion within the Department of Defense and the VA. It's almost viewed as a Pandora's box. You know, do we really want to open this up? Which carries us back into the same kind of track record of dealing with, you know, agent Orange, the Gulf War syndrome. You know, burn pits, now pits. Now you hear about directed energy.
Speaker 2:My opinion is we have to hit this head on. If we stick our head in the sand, we're going to come back to regret not aggressively pursuing the answers on this. I do believe that we can find the answers and a better path forward to protect the men and women that have stepped forward and raised their hand to protect this nation. We're often going into harm's way, but we've left too many behind and that's unforgivable. And it's not a point now in the discussion that, oh, we didn't know. We do know. Now we have a body of evidence that is growing to the point that now it's going to be negligence if they don't start. You know, pursuing this, these answers, answers and one of the things I I caveat my discussions at the pentagon and with senior leaders is look, nobody is saying that whatever solution we come up with needs to affect our it can't affect our operational effectiveness or lethality on the battlefield. That's a fact. We need, need these forces, we need these capabilities, but what we are saying is, let's understand them. And how can we engineer the training? How can we engineer some of the operations, whether outside the combat environment, inside the combat environment that buys down this risk, to include better methodologies to monitor this exposure? You know we've got a lot of building now with data, artificial intelligence, machine learning, that we can start sniffing out and identifying these patterns before they actually allow an operator, a warrior or a first responder to get into that danger zone.
Speaker 2:That we believe them, because very often the system does not listen to these folks when they come forward, despite the fact that you know this. All the services and these various components say, hey, if you have a problem, please come forward. You know we're going to help you. Well, unfortunately that doesn't always happen.
Speaker 2:Uh, there's too many instances of you know these folks stepping forward where their issues are weaponized against them and then, instead of a willingness to move forward to get help, it turns into an issue of institutional betrayal where if you can't contribute to operations, then you're no good to us. So let's get rid of you and kick you to the curb, and unfortunately that's still happening. I think a lot of that's happening because of ignorance. They don't understand what we've just been talking about here, and without some defined pathways, some validated solutions, then they're going to default to what they have done in the past, and that is let's pass the problem on or let's, you know, leave it behind, and that's unforgivable. That's part of the core ethos of anybody in uniform, whether the military or first responder, is that we have sworn and pledged that we would never leave anybody behind, and we're leaving too many.
Speaker 1:We take an oath of office. Everybody does, even your senior leaders in the military and in law enforcement and I should say, in the federal government. And you're bringing up a lot of good points and you know you're retired Secret Service, you've been in the federal government. You're bringing up a lot of good points and you know you're retired secret service. You've been in the federal government, you're military, retired secret service Contractor. You've done so much in the government that you understand that if you raise your hand and you say, hey, look, there's a problem here, then someone's not going to get their SES bonus, someone's not going to get their next star, someone may not go from colonel to general, so they want to just move these problems to the side and push it on to the next person. Well, we're going on decades now. We can't push it on to the next person. We need to take the fight into the public side now and say, hey, you know what, it's okay to come forward.
Speaker 1:But, like you said just now, in the law enforcement community, in certain departments you can come forward and say, hey, you know what, I'm having a tough time. I might have PTSD Just now. And this is law enforcement's been around forever Now military, when you're trying to come forward and you say I've got a problem, well then you're not mission effective. Here's some drugs, move on, get off. You're a number. You're the mission effective. Here's some drugs, move on, get off.
Speaker 1:You're a number. You're the last four. You know the last four years, social. So to get to that point where senior leaders are going to take the stand and push that directive down to the lowest level because it has to be at the absolute top. So you have a new executive coming in now, you have a new cabinet coming in. You have a new cabinet coming in. You have new political appointees coming in. They have four years to be like okay, we need to tackle this and have something set in place, set in stone, to where our soldiers and service member service members can come forward and say, hey, you know what, that last exercise we had where we did a breach, I'm not feeling right man, and be able to come forward without being mission ineffective and be able to address the issue and move it on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's not weakness, I think, is what you're saying. It's really, you know. It's how do we preserve these warriors and all this investment that we've put into them and maintain that unity and integrity? It's shifting the conversation away from weakness to hey, this is what we do. And when you look and assess what we've asked these folks to do, how could they not sustain some injuries? I mean, when you look at what they're doing in training, what they're doing in just general operations, let alone combat, you'd say holy cow, how could you not be injured or at least have some consequence?
Speaker 2:There's a great book that it's called the Body Keeps Score through in life, where the body, you know you might think, oh yeah, I got my belt wrong, I feel okay now. Or you know I, you know I got this broken bone and it healed up. Or you know I've, you know, had this. You know I COVID and okay, I don't have it anymore. Really, I mean, your body at some point is keeping a tally and, yeah, and because the human body is so resilient and has tremendous ability to heal, if you allow it to heal and that's the key thing If you allow your body to heal, it will heal. Unfortunately, we're moving at such a speed and you know from special operations, jason, even law enforcement you know we get on that bullet train and that thing's moving so fast that you know, yeah, you're getting banged up but you're not even thinking about it because you're on to the next mission or or you're focused on you know, you know, just you know that forward momentum very often where we start seeing this manifest itself is when you know, at some point, your body and this is again not weakness, it can only take so much and it starts forming, you know, these little cracks in the foundation. And and that's when, hopefully, we're shifting the conversation to look, if you need help, let's get help. Let's preserve you and your operational contribution. Let's recognize what you've done for us. Let's do the right thing. We're not going to kick you out of the tribe. We're going to wrap our arms around you. We're going to help you heal and we're going to get you back into the fight, back into what you love doing, and if it's time to kind of shift to something else, we're going to help you do that and respect the service and respect you know and honor what you have done for us. Unfortunately, we don't see a lot of that happening. I think it's starting to change a little bit.
Speaker 2:But again it all goes back to what you said earlier. This is about leadership. This sits squarely in the leadership box and as long as we're in this posture of what I call leadership by lawyer, where we have kind of evolved into this place where we have leaders in title but they don't really lead, you know all they're trying to do is keep the lid on something and protect, you know, their environments, their individual environments for their next step. You know they're just trying to get through this space onto the next place without getting too scarred or marked up with anything that would slow their promotion potential or opportunities down. And then they won't make any decision without talking to their lawyers.
Speaker 2:And this is where I get a case in the ass. I mean, I used to tell my general counsels hey, you have no decision-making authority here, you don't approve shit. All you do is provide me advice and counsel. It's up to me to make that decision and I'll carry that load. And if it's wrong, that's on me, I'll own it. But there's going to be times when you're going to advise me to do one thing. I'm not going to follow that advice, because I'm also getting information from other places too. I've got operational imperatives, I've got timelines that are just fleeting, you know, before our eyes.
Speaker 1:So this is really about you know having, you know that strength of character, that courage to make decisions despite the fact that not everybody might be happy with your decision. Frank, you know what I kept thinking while you're saying that is ROE. Who writes most of the ROE? It's lawyers. It's always lawyers that come up with rules of engagement. Now, when you brought up the, hey, you know what. As a commander, you have your intent. You can hey, you know what, you can use your lawyer's advice, and this goes with the Fed government too.
Speaker 1:If you're an SES, you're always going to have general counsel in your pocket, or OPLA or whatever you want to call them, depending on the agency. But now you have CONUS ROE, you have CON. Has ROE being written by lawyers who will say hey, you know what, you don't want to engage with that topic. You don't want to engage with that topic. Hey, you want to be a three-star, two-star, you want to go from major to colonel, or you want to go from captain to major to colonel. They're always relying on the lawyer, and the lawyer is making the decision on whether or not they should engage with someone who's having an issue.
Speaker 1:There are so many people out there willing to talk and discuss these topics, from the private all the way up to the sergeant major, from the lieutenant all the way up to the general, who want to talk about this, but they're afraid that they're either not even just upward progression. They're afraid that their livelihood and their career and basically, essentially, their life, will be over. So to find someone who's going to take that high ground and say enough is enough, put their foot down and say we got to do something about this, there has got to be someone that's going to have their back. And I think that's the next thing we need to talk about is ensuring that, if these people do come forward and do talk about this and do make the right decisions, that they could do it openly and freely. And that includes the people who want to come forward and say my brain is feeling really messed up right now. I need help. So we have to have those protocols in place as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, this whole issue of an institutional betrayal is getting some traction and when you look at it you know you have folks that step on the line, as I said earlier, raise their right hand, you know, to be part of the solution, to take care of the problem. And we saw that, I mean, and massive numbers following 9-11, where you know men and women just dropped what they were doing, enlisted, got commissioned to get in the fight. You did it. It's in our national DNA. I hope it's still there because at times I question where we've gone here recently.
Speaker 1:Frank, it's still there. You know, as someone who was a navy seal in the 1970s and beyond, you remember what the the vietnam war was like in the 70s and 80s. But the only reason we see it now is because we have social media, and social media puts it right in our face. But when you look at the actual followers and people are doing this it's only a slight fraction of the country. You know as well as I do and most of the people that listen to. If you get off the highway and you get into a small town, there are still patriotic Americans who want to step forward and serve, and they will serve for the right reasons.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, I just came back from Montana and Wyoming. What a breath of fresh air To get out of the DC Beltway where everybody's got their nose. Well, you got the visual.
Speaker 1:You know, frank, I know man, I live right outside of DC and we both know there's no grasp of reality here. It's all about the next million dollars, the next $2 million, or the next promotion, or the next, you know, ses, 15 bonus.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's to me I could give a rat's ass. I mean titles never really. You know that was never my driver. I mean, I've been at those ranks that really you know me. It's more about getting the job done and taking care of your people, and I think for those leaders throughout history that put their people first and sincerely did what they could to look out for their people, without a doubt made the best leaders, made the best leaders not only from the perspective of the people that worked for them or that they led, but operationally they were more successful across the board than some leader that was a complete tyrant and just had no regard for their people and just used them in order to move on to the next spot.
Speaker 2:I think that you know we we do have a lot of people that care and you know one of the worst things you can do to this nation is poke it and assume that you know we're asleep or we're not paying attention. And you know because you know when that bear rises up, it's it's gone for, it's gone for blood and it does not like to lose. So I think we as a nation have the ability to deal with these issues. We, you know, we just need to kind of reprioritize some of the things that we're doing. I'm hoping that the new administration comes on board with recognizing the opportunity that they have to deal with some of the issues that we're talking about here with regards to our active duty, our veteran population, because this is a national security issue. I mean, if this brain health threat is substantial enough, then that really challenges our ability to effectively operateamedic firefighter. They have the ability to make decisions. They can overcome and adapt right there on the edge. You know. They don't need to ask, you know. You know that you know, through the chain of command, if, if they should, you know, redirect their, their fuel to fire or, or, you know, point their hose in a different direction, or if they should, you know, administer this drug or that drug to save somebody's life, they do it right there at the dirt level, right at the deck plate. And that's what gives us and our ability to innovate on the fly and adapt, gives us that edge. And if we lose that because we're not paying attention to some of this brain health stuff, that which you know, as I said, the growing body of evidence is showing us that there's something here that you know we have to be aware of. We can still operate in these environments. We just need to do it smarter and we really need to recognize that.
Speaker 2:You know we all have to be part of a tribe and that's kind of how humans are. You know we value our membership in different tribes. You know whether it's a military unit, whether it's, you know your. You know your. You know platoon. You know at the fire station, you know whether it's. You know a. You know in the emergency department with, with your team of colleagues. You know we're all part of a tribe and and that tribe helps to. You know, qualify our purpose, qualify who we are and and and why we're here.
Speaker 2:And when you become separated from that tribe, for whatever reason, either you know if you're pushed out, if you're, if you leave on bad terms, you know again you should never leave a job, you know with hate, hate in your, your head.
Speaker 2:Or or even if you're just voluntarily leaving, just because you're moving to a new experience that tribal separation is is.
Speaker 2:It's not easy and and as we've talked about with our veterans and even our first responders as they move across that line from active duty to veteran status or from active fire, ems, police.
Speaker 2:You know public servant status into retirement it's a very vulnerable period, you know, one, two, three years out, where you're trying to reset yourself, rebalance. You know, learn a whole new vocabulary. You know you're moving out into a society that largely doesn't understand the experiences that you've had, despite what they see on TV, and so it becomes very vulnerable for these men and women. And that's where you know they've got to kind of connect up to another tribe and that's why I'm so grateful to these veteran service organizations that are around because they offer that tribal connection. You know I try to encourage a lot of our first responders and others to kind of volunteer. You know help coach. You know a team sport you know help. You know mentor young kids. You know be part of something else and there is opportunity out there. It's just that you have to create that new adventure and just not be afraid to move forward.
Speaker 1:When you talk about the loneliness factor that comes into it. You know I retired from law enforcement. So after when I retired, that hit. I think my I was close to 30 years of combined service, If you think about like active duty, national guard and 23 years in law enforcement and not having a mission next was one of the toughest things for me. You know hence why I really poured into doing like nonprofit this and that I had to come up with another mission. I think that's imperative. When you brought up something right now, it kind of clicked Teach a sport, Do something where you're interacting with other people, Build a new tribe.
Speaker 1:It's imperative because your brain needs more than just silence. Sometimes you think, hey, you know what? There's all this silence. I could just work through some things, I could put some tunes on, I could be good. But at the end of the day, you need something. You need some sort of support. 99% of us cannot get away with just being a hermit and walking up into the mountains and getting away with it and getting out of it. You need something, you need a mission. You need people around you, the you also need the medical help and you don't need a million different drugs trying to like keep you solid and straight. What you do is you need people that are going to focus all their efforts on helping you get solid on solid ground, so you don't take that next step. That's a permanent one.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and a lot of that comes down to listening. Yeah, and a lot of that comes down to listening. You know the system. You know, when somebody feels that they're not being listened to, then they start to separate, they start to become disenfranchised and, unfortunately, I think that's what has, in part and parcel, led to, you know, some of the challenges that we're seeing with our veteran and first responder communities. It's folks like us, jason, that are trying to change that narrative, reduce those barriers of entry. So we are living up to our promise that we'll take care of them for the service that they provided us, a service that we can never forget. They gave it all for us and I and I don't want to overcharacterize that, but it's really true, um, you know, there, there, there are things that you and I've done, jason, and others that have been are probably on the net here listening that, even though our society, you know, doesn't understand and probably will not understand, I think it's better that they don't. You know that some of them just have not had the experiences that we've had because you know you wouldn't want to wish them on anybody else.
Speaker 2:You know, and that's what we are. You know we're the sheepdogs and you know we're, we're the protectors. You know we watch over the herd and and so, as the herd is kind of doing their thing, and you know interacting and you know propagating to build the herd and all that and, and you know moving in and out of their starbucks, uh, you venues, and you know doing their thing. You know the sheepdogs are watching the perimeter and you know the sheepdogs are kind of scouts out, you know, trying to see what's coming at the herd. You know, from the next ridge line and not playing goal line defense, and you know that's kind of where we are with all this is.
Speaker 2:You know I, I part of a. You know, you see, on my my next to my name, warrior Call it's. It's really an effort to you know, deputize those that have been in uniform to reach out to others that have served and also, you know, expand that circle of you know impact to friends and family that, hey, if you know somebody that served in any capacity, whether the military, first responder, whatever, reach out to them, you know, make a call. You know, hey, jason, reach out to them. You know, make a call. You know, hey, jason, hey, I, just you know. I know we haven't talked in about 10 years. But I just came across your number, you know, I just said what the hell, let me just give him a call and and see how he's doing. And just you know it's, it's not. It's not other anything other than let's connect up and kind of talk.
Speaker 2:And it's amazing how many times we hear that somebody has been in a bad place and, for whatever reason, whoever's sitting at that master control panel way above us is pushing some buttons, pulling some levers and saying, hey, I'm going to have Frank call Jason. Yeah, I got it. They haven't talked in 10 years. But let's see what happens. And you know, all of a sudden I got this, hey, there's this number, I you know, and my contacts said, hey, let me give him a call and we connect and we start talking and we start getting into stuff that we had done years ago. And of course we'll embellish it a little bit because it's, you know, we, you know we have to, you know one up, you know our experience.
Speaker 2:But but it's amazing how many times we get feedback from a person that's in a bad place, and I'm talking about some real dark places. They've become disconnected from their tribe, they've they've, they've isolated, they have, you know, become angry. They don't, they think they're all alone, and then all of a sudden, that call comes in and it pulls them, you know, right back into the light. It gets them, you know, it pulls them away from the edge, and just, you know, it's, it's. It's not a, it's not a wonder cure, it's not. It's just people being people, showing that they care about each other, that they're not alone, that people really are there to you know that you know are experiencing many of the same things, and that you know we have a greater chance of success if we kind of move through things together.
Speaker 2:And uh, and the other thing too, is the people that are making the call. We hear, more times than not, what good medicine that is for that, you know. So it's a two-way street and so how, how easy is it just to pick up the phone, make a call to anybody and just get the conversation going. And many times you hear hey, I haven't talked to this guy in 25 years, but man, when we got on the phone it just seemed like yesterday. I mean that 25 years just went like this. And so that's what Warrior Call is all about. We're trying to make this a kind of a national movement not sponsored by any one organization, just a behavior within our society not to forget those that have served us in any uniform capacity, and just let them know how much we appreciate them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, as you were talking, I went to the warriors call website on my phone. It's very easy to use. You could pledge to call warrior today. Tells you how to make a call. And you brought up some valid points there. Because one thing about the service and this is the same thing with protector community, but just in services like you can call someone 15, 20, 30 years later and it's like you just talked to them. Yesterday One of my NCOs was in town my first NCO when I was a private Piccolo and he's like hey, let's get together for lunch. And as we got together for lunch, it seemed like I was just in his section 30 years ago or 25, 28 years ago. It's like nothing. I love it. That's the great thing about service is you build these connections with people, and the connections are what helps man. And I tell people that all the time just text someone, say hey, what's up, and not just be like, hey, you okay, are you suicidal? Are you dark place? No, just hey, what's up, it's not that hard yeah, you know, um.
Speaker 2:You know it's amazing how you come out of some of those encounters and you just feel like a ton of weights just pulled off you.
Speaker 1:You know, it's just, it's really good medicine, it's refreshing and nobody busts other people, like veterans, like you mentioned something about. Like you know, I want to throw some Navy SEAL jokes out there, but you know we'll get to that another day. But you know what I mean. It's always like the service and the branches we always have something to really bust on each other, but it's all in good fun, but it's always something that's positive. You know you're building these relationships you have.
Speaker 2:You'll never, never, ever have them anywhere else no, and I think that's part of the struggle when, during transition, is that, um, you know, as folks come out of that environment, which you know it's it's. I think you would agree that you know some of your military units, you know you build a dynamic that's even closer than your own blood family, especially if you've been in combat with them and you're through some tough, tough experiences. You just, you know, I know that. You know I was up in New York on 9-11. And I know my Secret Service colleagues that went through that experience with me. I mean, we've got a bond that you know. Hey, that was our experience together. We'll never forget that.
Speaker 2:And I just ran into one of those you know dudes, you know, a couple weeks ago, and you know we barely had to say anything to each other. You know it was just just, you know, an immediate transmission of emotion, because you can't go through something like that and not have it impact you and and stay with you forever. And hopefully, what we're saying is that those experiences, sometimes as horrible as they are, actually provide you strength in the long run. You know, if you can learn to overcome and get stronger as a result of, you know, those experiences, this that you know as, as a good friend of mine, ken falk um, who you know runs, you know runs. You know Boulder Crest, you know it's post-traumatic growth. It's. You know how do you understand what you've been through and use that as a you know, a stepping stone just to get stronger and more resilient and almost to the point where and I forget what you know, maybe it was stripes and Bill Murray saying thank you. May I have another?
Speaker 2:And unfortunately we're all a little whacked out because we get addicted to adventure. We get addicted to solving problems and doing things that are at times extreme, but you know, never forget who you are and and always have purpose. Uh, and, like I said, some of the best advice I can give folks, you know, when they're not in a good place, is hey, just get outside, breathe the air and go volunteer and do something you know, even if it's helping to you know. You know, pass out food to folks that don't have the ability to get food for themselves. You know, whether it's coaching a you know a little league team, whether it whether it's just going to a retirement home and having to sit down with a few folks, whatever you can do, some of the greatest rewards come from those experiences where you don't get paid financial remuneration it's, but you get paid and just the goodwill of doing something for somebody else.
Speaker 1:It's so true and it's simple. It's not. It doesn't have to be rocket science. Frank, I want everybody to go to warrior callorg. Just make the pledge, I mean I'll do it. I'm going to go to warriorcallorg. Just make the pledge, I mean I'll do it. I'm going to text some friends tonight. I mean obviously it's going to be sending them memes or something else like that, or however you call it memes. But it's simple as just making contact with someone and keeping that foothold into their life that maybe they don't take that next step, that maybe they've just been in the back of their mind for a while and they don't take that next step, that maybe there's just been in the back of their mind for a while and they don't know how to get it out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, jason, I just have to mention that the reason I'm here is because seven and a half years ago I lost my Navy SEAL son, ryan, to suicide, highly decorated SEAL operator who took too many blasts to the head, you know.
Speaker 2:Just in service to this nation, I was extremely proud of him. But you know, those demons got a hold of him and the system didn't do the right thing because they didn't know what they were dealing with and unfortunately he was, you know, one of the many that fall through the cracks. And so this is all about preventing that from ever happening again and having anybody else walk that path of pain. So we can get to a better place if we all kind of link arms and do this together and keep reminding each other that we're not alone. There is hope, there are people that are working on solutions and you know for those that are listening, to be part of that solution and join the team. So I want to thank you for the opportunity to come on have this conversation. Hey, if you ever need an old guy to come on again to fill any gaps, I'm here.
Speaker 1:You know what, Frank? You should have never said that. There's one thing I love doing is I love having co-hosts. So I really expect you to be on some more of these podcasts and I do owe you a cup of coffee right down the road from me. But, Frank, I do want you to have you come back on, because one thing I've always learned in life and in loss is that if you say someone's name and your son's name was ryan is if you say their name when you tell their story and you keep telling their story, that their memory will always be alive. When you stop saying their name is when their memory fades and their sacrifice fades. So I do thank you for coming on and I do want to tell his story, but I want a complete episode of telling his story and other stories and and I do want you back on- you got it.
Speaker 2:Just tell me when and where.
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