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The Protectors® Podcast
Welcome to The Protectors® Podcast, where the valor meets the storyteller. Hosted by Jason Piccolo, a seasoned veteran and retired special agent, this series is a must-listen for anyone intrigued by the courage and tales of those who pledge to protect us. Beyond the front-line stories of bravery and dedication, this podcast goes a step further, weaving in the perspectives of those who bolster and narrate the protector's journey—featuring a remarkable lineup including New York Times Best Sellers and acclaimed Hollywood actors.
The Protectors® Podcast offers a diverse array of voices, from those who wear the uniform to the authors and entertainers who amplify their stories. It's a unique blend that highlights not only the raw realities faced by our protectors but also how their sacrifices inspire the narratives we cherish in literature and film. Each episode is a testament to the interconnected worlds of service and support, bringing listeners an unmatched depth of insight.
Dr. Jason Piccolo is a retired federal agent, former U.S. Army Infantry Captain (Iraq 2006), and author.
Past Guests Include:- Sean Patrick Flanery - Andrews & Wilson- Mark Greaney- Stephen Hunter- Remi Adeleke - Florent Groberg - Clint Emerson - Travis Mills
The Protectors® Podcast
517 | Eric Bishop & Jason Piccolo | The Indie Publishing Playbook
Joint Episode with Eric Bishop discussing our recent book launches!
For those navigating the world of indie publishing, Eric Bishop joins us to share insights from his book "Babylon Will Rise" and the hustle behind self-publishing success. Our conversation highlights the creative storytelling and marketing strategies crucial for indie authors, along with the importance of feedback, community support, and transitioning from military to civilian life. From mentoring veterans to supporting fellow writers, we emphasize the power of collaboration and the impact of giving back, leaving listeners with valuable advice and inspiration.
Make sure to check out Jason on IG @drjasonpiccolo
Welcome to another episode of Guess what, not just A Tale of Two Scribes. We have the protectors here. We have a dual episode going on. I told everybody I was done for the year, but jason decided to come out with this book right here which we need to talk about.
Speaker 1:So we're gonna start by saying hey, welcome to the protectors podcast. This is a joint episode with tale of two scribes with eric bishop. What's going on, brother?
Speaker 2:I like it, I'm good.
Speaker 1:I'm good.
Speaker 2:I just I got my Edinburgh sweatshirt. I was walking down this who knows what the name of the road was, this cobblestone road with my mom and my cousin and I was in a sweatshirt and I got really, really cold and I don't get cold. So I ducked into a generic tourist shop and I looked around and said, hey, $35 sweatshirt, I don't want to be cold. So I threw that thing on and it kept me warm.
Speaker 2:I tell you that trip looked amazing, man. Well, you got to go to Europe. There a couple months before me you got to go to Germany and then, yes, I got to go the coolest thing, I think, really about it. Besides, just what I was able to see was my mom had never left the country I take that back. She had been to Canada and she had been to the Bahamas, but she had never gone overseas to Europe. So, 71 years old and it was a thank you trip I paid for it for mom to go. I was like mom, you've done a lot for me, I want to take you and do something cool with you. And, um, yeah, just had a blessing with her and we had a blast. I, I had her out at the temple bar one night in dublin. I couldn't get her to throw one back, so I made sure I did, but uh, you know, took her on a few experiences.
Speaker 1:so that is the greatest thing you could do, I think, is a son is like travel experiences, you know yeah, absolutely, um, yeah, just you know we've had obviously a lot of offline conversations.
Speaker 2:We both had some interesting things occur in our life in the last couple years and the things in life, the things that we accumulate, all the stuff doesn't really matter in the end. You don't take it with you.
Speaker 2:No what matters. Relationships matter, you know, people matter. So to have the time with people that you love, um, it's good to have a reminder every now and then, especially because I've had a few friends in the last two, three years that have lost their parents, one or both, um, and so I'm blessed I haven't had to experience that at this point, but I I want to try to enjoy those moments I can have with something like this, with my mom for sure.
Speaker 1:so and you know you talk about losing people, like now that I'm in my 50s, like I'm more and more people I've been to high school with and their families, nobody else. And I'm like man, I want to experience everything I possibly can. Yeah, I've been to uh, what? I've been to the united states, los estados unidos, like the bahamas, like when I was a kid, right, but iraq, kuwait and germany. So it's like I don't have this big like, but now I'm like all I want to do is I want to see the world, I want to experience the world well, we'll get a few trips under our belts together in the next couple you got to see shine down.
Speaker 1:You got to go to england, england or Europe or somewhere to see those guys.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there'll be there they're. They're kicking off a tour this year, I'm sorry, this year, 2025. We're not there yet. Nothing's announced of when, where I know they're going to tour. I know, I do know that. I think. So, yeah, I think, if they make it over to uh europe, I think we'll have to be uh, we'll have to do some fanboying and go over there and catch a few shows together.
Speaker 1:It's crazy. I'm always on like ticket master now looking for shows in europe and I'm looking like I'm trying to like scour the internet for like cheap flights for anything. I'm like I just want live music now. Man, that's like my thing coming out of dc, you should be able to.
Speaker 2:The other place that's really good for Europe is JFK. Getting flights out of JFK is like four or 500 bucks. You can find a lot of different places in Europe. Unfortunately, I'm not close to JFK so I have to get up there. I did make a purchase the other day. Fortunately my son does not want Well, my son knows I was going to say fortunately he doesn't know. I did get him a concert tickets he doesn't know yet about those are Christmas tickets. But the big one I got the other day was we got tickets to go see ACDC. Oh, they're awesome. Man, never seen them. So we were going to see them in Nashville. I was looking at like Vegas and Chicago and Nashville ended up being the spot Of course. He was like are we going to be up next to the stage? I was like dude, you didn't know the prices ahead of time so you had to log in. I was in the queue for like 30 minutes, waiting, waiting, and finally my turn came up and first thing I did was click down like floor near the stage $7.50,.
Speaker 1:I think was the cheapest one. Holy crap yeah.
Speaker 2:Per ticket.
Speaker 1:And I said per ticket. And I said I love my son but I don't sell that many books. It's a lot of books. That's what we're going to talk about today is indie author. But you know, when you talk about shows man, I um, I saw acdc in 98 or 99 in san diego. What a great show man. For those about to rock, oh man and and the cannons, oh God, you're going to have a great time.
Speaker 2:Looking forward to it. I've done some and I like to kind of do these bigger ones with him, like we've we've seen Bon Jovi, we saw you two at the sphere, uh Eagles, oh man, uh Garth Brooks, just yeah, those fun. A bunch of Shinedown shows and those ones are special because we're not stuck in one seat, which that's kind of the fun part of having that access. You can just go side stage.
Speaker 1:This is the tickets I have so far for the next year. I have Disturb the Sickness 25th Anniversary Tour and Capital One Arena in DC. I have Killswitch Engage and then I have Metallica M7272 world tour. Where are you seeing them? I'm seeing them at the bank of america stadium.
Speaker 2:You know where that's at.
Speaker 1:I didn't know those tickets were available. Yes, my friend, I got those a long time ago, though, as soon as they came out, boom I wonder if they're still when we get off tonight.
Speaker 2:I gotta look, because they're on my bucket list. I haven't seen them yeah, I saw them.
Speaker 1:Gosh, that was like one of my first main. I mean I used to see speed metal concerts in the 80s, yeah, but that was my first big one. I saw Injustice for All. Wow, I saw Injustice for All twice. I saw Black Elm twice and then I saw this M72 tour before I think I I saw them with my brother. I've seen them probably about 70 times, oh, okay. You've seen them a whole bunch. Yeah, they're incredible, brother. Yeah, I haven't been anywhere but Iraq, kuwait and Germany. But I have seen some good shows.
Speaker 2:You have seen some good shows, yeah, Well, again, the great thing about your take in life and the way you're looking at things happening in life right now is that you know what. It's never too late to start going out and exploring. You've got Global Entry.
Speaker 1:Global Entry is where it's at, brother.
Speaker 2:That's the thing for international traffic. So it was funny. I used mine for the first time a week ago, sunday, and I got up to the in Charlotte. I got up to the kiosk and I thought you'd have to show your ID. So I'm like fumbling around my wall to grab my ID and the worker was not the nicest person. I'm like fumbling around my wallet, grab my ID and the worker was not the nicest person. Hey, what are you doing? I'm like I'm getting my global entry ID. He goes go up to the little monitor and put your face. That's all you need. I'm like, oh okay, I had no idea. So I did that. I walked over. I almost walked by the guy with the passports. He was like, hey, I was like done.
Speaker 2:40 seconds from when I walked into the room, my mom didn't have global entry and she told me use your global entry. She went with the commoners and I think it took her 25 minutes to get through customs and everything. Much different experience. I waited for her. She said leave, because she was actually flying out to Connecticut. I was just going. I said, no, I'm going to get your bag and wait here, I'm not going to leave you. So which? Then.
Speaker 2:It was a cool thing that happened as I was waiting there in the international terminal or baggage return and someone calls my name, comes up to me, shakes my hand, says I love your books no clue who this person was, no idea. Introduced himself, he said I saw you in London get ready to board the plane and I wasn't able to go over and say hi and I'm like that was the first time outside of like local family friends where I live, that someone actually called me out where I don't live I live an hour from Charlotte. So that was kind of like, okay, I feel a little more legit now. You know, watch out Jack car, you know.
Speaker 1:Well, you know, talk about indie authoring man. It's like if anybody I know knows how to market a book, it's you. And now we have Babylon Will Rise and I've noticed that the reviews are coming up. You're starting to get. I love how you do the pictures, with everybody taking pictures of it. Yeah, so you are probably one of the best indie marketers I know. Oh, and you're a great author as well, so I'm excited I got the babylon will rise as soon as it came out. The omega group series, man you did.
Speaker 2:I appreciate that. Yeah, thanks I. You know I didn't. I didn't want to have to be a marketer, I didn't want to have to go down this path, but I wanted books to come out. And I mean, even if you get an, a, you know, you know, you get an agent, you get a publisher Guess what they're not doing all the work for you? You have to promote your books and there are exceptions. There's people that don't do much promotion, sell a lot of books, but that's really the exception of the rule, like the people that are out there making the bestseller list and stuff.
Speaker 1:They're hustling. They're hustling.
Speaker 2:They're hustling really hard, um, and they might get some times when they don't have to cause. You know you, you get about six weeks, two months after a book is out. You know the sales typically pretty much not plunge or bottom out, but they go down significantly. So you can kind of lay low and work on your next book or get everything else ready. You know you don't have to do it 24 seven. I'm in the position where, since I don't have that big publishing help um, for as little as it might be sometimes, it has to be fairly constant.
Speaker 2:You know, I just have to and I've also had enough stuff coming out last couple of years that there's always something to kind of bring to people's attention. So the hustle is real.
Speaker 1:What are you doing, like about a thousand words a night, or four or 500 words a night, or how do you? How do you set yourself up?
Speaker 2:The truth would be I have no set rules. I wrote a bunch on the trip. I've written since I've been back from the trip. I've not. I've done some editing on something. I wrote the last couple of nights but I've not really written anything since Babylon of Rise came out. I haven't written on the next book, supreme Justice, in a few nights. I'm in writing mode now. So when we get done tonight, I'll do writing tonight and I'll do writing for the next couple months pretty consistently. But almost years ago, when the kids were little and I was married, everyone went to bed and I would just.
Speaker 2:That would be my time, my wife at the time went to bed early, got up early I was a night hawk, slept in a little more. So my writing window where I had no distractions was like 10 o'clock till 12. And that's when I did it. I still gravitate towards that time now, but it's sporadic, like there's times I'm writing and then there's a month where I might write hardly anything, just because I'm trying to format the next book. I'm trying to work on this with that.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, there's no and there's no secret formula. I mean, there are people out there that swear you've got to write every day. It's BS. It might work for them and maybe for them they have to. I can start a chapter, put it down a week later, go right back to where I left off and start writing again. It's just and I'm not saying it's the best thing in the world but my brain is able to just go okay, you're back. Keep that thought going, although I try to stop at a spot that I don't have to remember where I got to jump off to the next time.
Speaker 1:So where are we at, with Babylon Will Rise.
Speaker 2:Well, it's out in the world. It is available on Amazon ebook paperback, hardcover. It's actually, out of all the books I've been putting out and put out the last couple of years, this one people the advanced readers are saying that they like this the most. And part of the reason I wanted to talk with you tonight we're talking about Pivot and talking about what you're doing for veterans is Babylon Will Rise is my first full-length novel that really focuses on military personnel.
Speaker 2:I never served. I don't pretend to—no imposter syndrome going on here that I'm pretending I've done something I haven't. It's all creative stuff going on in my head. But I've had friends that have served, so I've kind of gleaned from them what it's like. I've been around them in cars for hours at a time and just the endless ball busting that happens. So I've kind of integrated all that and when I want to tell stories of, I think I at least have a good idea of what happens when soldiers are getting ready for a mission or they're out on a mission. So I've really enjoyed.
Speaker 2:I love telling these characters stories. And for this story, you know the Omega group's a six person group there. There's a person in charge of it as well, a seventh member who's not involved in the day-to-day action, but in this one I brought in a female character. So the boys meet up with Charlie and when they first hear who Charlie is, they think it's a dude Little. Do they realize it's Charlene? She goes by, charlie, and the feedback I've got from her has been incredible. Incredible enough that I probably want to do something with her in a couple years. Give her and her group of female office soldiers their, give them their due. So I'm excited about it.
Speaker 1:Now, when you put this all together, like one thing I do want to talk about tonight is indie authoring. And yeah, because I indie authored mine, I was going to go the traditional route and try to pitch it blah blah, but my goal with the pivot book was I'm like look, this is my information from 30 years of being in the government on how to get hired, how a veteran and a service member can get hired. I could go the traditional route and wait a year, but I don't want to do that. I want to get this information out now because to me, that's like 200,000 people leave the service every year. That's potentially 200,000 people that are missing out on the information.
Speaker 2:Right, absolutely.
Speaker 1:I'm not talking about the marketing-wise. I didn't write the book to make a ton of money. I made a book to break even and to get the information out there, because to me indie authoring is this I wrote, I put the information down, I put it together and then as soon as my manuscript's ready, or as soon as all that everything's ready, I send it away to some guy, met some group, I met on fiverr to do the inside editing and then I found someone to do the cover and then I had to go and upload it to KDP, amazon, kdp, then Barnes Noble. I had to hire someone to do the cover for that specific thing. But what I like to tell people is like, if you have a book, write it. You don't always have to go traditional and you're fairly successful for going this route.
Speaker 2:Yeah, again, and I've said this on even recent podcasts. The thing is, is what do you want out of it? So if you want to be a New York Times bestseller, it's never going to happen. Going indie Just not going to happen. New York Times doesn't acknowledge that you exist, basically, unless it becomes like a Fifty Shades of Grey. You know, something happens to that, and then a bigger publisher picks up something, because that started basically as kind of like a self-published kind of thing, and that's an anomaly, like a complete anomaly. But generally speaking, if you want New York Times bestseller list, you're going to have to go traditional publishing. I've said this one in other podcasts before.
Speaker 2:Guess what? New York Times bestseller is not necessarily the most bought book for that week. It might be, but it also might be some politics thrown in there. There might be a lot of politics. Yeah, there's a lot of crap that goes on. Enough that I've learned about it in the last five, six years, as I've taken this really serious. That sure would I like to be Eric Bishop New York Times bestseller. Yeah, I'm not stupid. Of course that sounds great. I'll mark because I can market it. If I never get that, though, will I feel like I'm less of an author. No, not at all. Again, when I get those responses from readers, that's who I care about. When people read my book and I get a legit review back, or someone sends me a message and says man that touched me or man that made me excited, or whatever, that's my juice. That's my juice. It's not does.
Speaker 1:Kirkus.
Speaker 2:Reviews, or does this other company that I pay money to say nice things about my book? I don't care about that, that's not my thing, and if that means I'm not going to be embraced by the publishing world, then so be it. I think I will at some point, and it will be because of what I write and maybe it's because I'll build myself self-publishing wise and it's something that they take notice. But ultimately, if they take notice, it's because they think they can make money off of me and that's not a negative.
Speaker 2:It's a business. Publishing industry is a business and it's not a charitable business. It's a for-profit business. Oh, absolutely. So they're bringing on people they think they can make money on. You might make money too not as much as you think or more than you think, you never know. But you've got to look at it and that's the lens that changed with me in the last three or four years, especially of realizing, okay, this is actually a business. So I want to tell stories. But once I start going down the indie route, I have to look at it from a business, like what I did marketing for the body man, even though it was a small publisher. I did a lot of marketing myself as well.
Speaker 2:I don't do the same things now because I look at it like okay, what's my bang for my buck? Am I pissing money away on this little thing? That's not going to get me sales, and that's just experience. You just learn how to do it basically, and sometimes you fail. Sometimes you know you do an ad and the ad falls flat, and again you kind of just have to roll with it and ultimately you have to tell a good story, but then you got to figure out how to market it. You know you're in that mix right now and I know yours is nonfiction, so it does sometimes, you know, not always crossover identical, but it's the same concept. You don't put a book out because you want to sell two copies. You want to put a book out because you want it to get the masses and for you, what I admire about what you're doing, and what you even just said, is you're trying to help people that have served our country. That you know what's the number 22 soldiers a day on average commit suicide.
Speaker 1:I think that's a low figure too.
Speaker 2:It probably is a low figure. And how many of those soldiers that get to that end and get to that point, it's because they haven't found a purpose, a mission.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they need a mission. One thing I wrote in this book was this I'm like look and this covers really the whole gambit so if you're a service member, the first chapter is going to be about hey, you're 24 months out, how do you want to set yourself up, whether or not you've been in for two years, four years, eight years, a career, whether or not you're enlisted or an officer? But the big thing was, you know, I have a whole chapter on like the bridge job, your first job out of the service, or your first job. Let's say, you get out and you go to college and your first real job doesn't have to be your career, it doesn't have to be your dream job. I call it the bridge job. So what you do is you're setting yourself up to build your experience and then move on to the next thing, because a lot of people don't realize you don't have to.
Speaker 1:You know, I grew up, I was in law enforcement for 23 years. You know federal law enforcement and it was always a career to me. I knew I had to stay in the government in order to finish out so I could retire, and I did Right. But you, nowadays, you don't have to, and that's one thing about this book too. It's not set towards you going into the corporate world of entrepreneurship or anything. It's really set towards people who want to continue serving in one way or the other, whether that's in a federal government or the civilian, private world. But it's more along those lines of how do I get that job?
Speaker 1:I have whole chapters on the federal hiring process, how do you use USA jobs? How do you use your veterans preference? And even if you were in a military, you get like a ton out of about. Let's say there's 18 chapters. If you were not in the military, you can get a lot out of about 12 of those chapters. It's all about interview prep. It's about resume building, it's about what to even wear to an interview, because you know they tell you in the government when you're getting out of the service.
Speaker 1:Sometimes you're like, oh, you have to buy a really nice suit. I'm like, no, you don't, you need to go to TJ Maxx, you need to go somewhere If you need to get a secondhand. You don't need the dress to impress as far as a lot of money Because, remember, you're going into a job but you don't want to go into debt to get that job. No, and you know, when you get out of the service, a lot of people don't have a ton of money and, as a matter of fact, a lot of people leaving this and I have a whole chapter on debt. Yeah, a lot of people are leaving the service with some amount of debt, whether it's car payments or whatever.
Speaker 1:So it's a very realistic look, and I think that's what sets this book apart from anything else is because when I did the market research, when I was writing this thing, I was like, okay, what kind of job books are out there, what kind of how-to books are out there? And they're more geared towards the hiring manager, not the individual looking for a job, not the individual looking for a job. So I said, hey, you know what, if I was a service person, service member getting out, or even a veteran, what do I need to succeed? Yeah, and so that's why I wrote it. Man, I think it's 437 pages of just guts Facts.
Speaker 2:Have you thought about maybe especially down the line a little bit further, maybe doing some kind of an online or videos that kind of breaks down some of the stuff for everybody, or as companions to the book, or something.
Speaker 1:Yeah, one of my friends was like you know, do you have TikTok? And I'm like yeah, and they're like you know what? So now I'll start doing like, probably next week I'll start doing like little TikTok blurbs about getting hired.
Speaker 2:Oh, I thought you were gonna say tiktok dances. I was gonna say jason, come on, bro, 51 years old now.
Speaker 1:The other thing is I'm going to be giving um speeches to military programs, because that's that's really where this came from. I was a. I've mentored veterans for years, for over a decade so that's kind of where I'm like I need to put something down, so when I'm talking about these things, I can just be like here, it's all right here, it's right here, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the giving back, I think, is. So again, I think that circles back to some of the stuff we talked about is, people are. A lot of times it's so easy in life, especially we live in an extremely materialistic world. I mean, a couple hundred years ago you live to survive. Now, I think a lot of times of course we were just talking about traveling and going to survive. Now, I think a lot of times of course we were just talking about it traveling, going to concerts. Now we live for comfort. Hey, man, when can I, can I have a filet for dinner? Hey, can I go, you know, to whatever a nice fancy, you know, people Experiences.
Speaker 2:Yeah, experiences and experiences are super important, but if that's all your life is about and if you're not helping, if you're not giving back with you wanting to help with veterans, with other people like myself, I try to um, I try to help as much as I can. When it comes to authors, especially indie authors. It's like I don't have any secrets that I won't give out. There's nothing that I'm going to hold back and say I want to sell books. I don't want to tell this to, I don't want to, you know, share this, because that might cause someone else to sell books that I could have sold or know my secrets. Everything I learned I mean like David Darling was one of those authors that I will praise to the high heavens, because David would just be like hey, you got a question, just message me or whatever we get on. You know Facebook Messenger or the video version of Facebook and he would just be like okay, and he'd actually show me the screen sometimes. Okay, go in there and click that and all that Stuff. That's like it meant so much to me that someone's willing to spend hours to learn something and then, in two minutes, show me what they learned, and it's like I have the responsibility to do the same exact thing what someone did. For me it's like show people how it works and, like you were talking about with you, know just what you can teach veterans and what you can teach in the process.
Speaker 2:I think there's an exact parallel to people that are trying to get into the publishing world. Don't get in debt If you can put a book out and go as basic as possible. That should be your goal, because we both know and we've been doing books in the industry long enough to know that there's a lot of people out there that will promise you the moon. Hey, for $2,000 or for $3,000 or for $4,000, I can get you this, this, this and this, and maybe they can. Maybe they can get you this, this, this and this, and maybe they can. Maybe they can get that. But if you're having to put that on a credit card because you want to achieve your dream, maybe you should work a side job for a couple months and save up and put that in. You know it's a gamble.
Speaker 2:There's definitely a gamble in there, and also the other thing, too, that I always tell people is try to get someone. You know, if it's a book marketer out there that's trying to offer their services. Try to figure out whether it's posting stuff on social media or whatever. Try to find out if someone has used them and get a firsthand account of are they reliable? Do they take your money and not do what they promised? Because I've heard so many stories of that over the years, where I'm gun shy. Now when I get messages from people and says, hey, man, for 150 bucks I can do such and such for you, I seriously are like okay, do I got 150? Sure, I got 150. Do I want to get to this person? Can I do it myself? Or can I find a way to do it? Or is there an actual value in that?
Speaker 1:So you got to be really careful, so you got to be really careful. The book promotion deals Like as soon as I put that on LinkedIn the other day, I'm inundated with people saying, hey, have you ever thought about doing this? And then they want to charge you. Yeah. So that's one thing I would caution If you're going to indie author this, any book is it just watch your money? Yeah, absolutely Watch your money Like whatever you put into it, like when I Watch your money Like whatever you put into it.
Speaker 1:So with my other book, with Unwavering, I initially had a publisher for that one, a small publishing house and then there they are. I eventually got their rights. That's me, brother. My mom calls it my beefcake photo. But as soon as I got the rights back to my book, I went through it because it was horribly edited before and I really wanted to get it out there. But at the time I was throwing money at this thing and I'm like I'm never going to get the money back, right, I mean. And nowadays I wish I could go back and rewrite the whole thing because it's really it's my story, but it's not my story, it's just a disjointed book and I'm not my story, it's just a disjointed book and I I'm not proud of it as much as I am.
Speaker 2:I'm very proud of this book pivot because to me it's like my unwavering is more self-glamorization of like this is me and this is what I've done, but this is more like this is you and this is what you can do right so I think, you're seeing as a way of giving back and helping others and that, yeah, that changes your philosophy on stuff, when you're putting something out there to help someone versus necessarily to help yourself or to inflate your ego or whatever people do stuff and that comes down to the marketing aspect of it too, is like marketing that book is completely different than this one.
Speaker 1:yeah, this one. What I'm doing is I've been reaching out to a lot of colleges. What I'll do is actually go been reaching out to a lot of colleges. What I'll do is actually go give a speech and talk about it and give them free copies because I want to help out the veteran community. Now, what I would love to see, in order to make the profit off of it at all, is just a corporation that volunteers with veterans to buy a handful of copies. Buy some copies in order for me to break even with it. But overall, I'm very proud because I'm like I have something that could be worthwhile and I was a hiring manager for years with the Fed. I was a veteran, so I kind of know where things are going.
Speaker 2:But yeah, man, so speak to this because I'm ignorant to the process. So you have someone that enlists at 18 and I'm just thinking off the top of my head on this. Someone enlists at 18 years old, very wet behind the ears. They kind of learn life's lessons, you know, with a four year. You know time in the with uncle Sam and in one one branch or another, four years is up, they don't reenlist for anymore, they're. Four years is up, they don't reenlist for anymore. They're you know they're in their wind down period. However that works. I know retirement's, probably much. I know how it works for retirement from some friends that have gotten out recently. But you're done after four years. Okay, tell me what happens, what, what is the? What does the military do to Joe? Joe blow here that just got out after four years?
Speaker 1:Well, you're supposed to have the transition assistance programs. You get like a little little training, a little resume prep and stuff, but really essentially you're given a little bit like really just a, a little snapshot of what you need to get out, and then you're out, you're in a world. You're boom. There's no more paycheck every month. There's, there's really nothing. I mean, yeah, you can collect unemployment for six months or so, but you're really out in the world. I mean it's like, hey, you know what uncle sam said, thank you for your service. Boom, I mean, yeah, you probably have some college fun if you want to go to college, but not everybody's, you know, gonna go to college, right, and if you do go to college, you're still gonna need a job. Yeah, so I mean and like I was saying before, a lot of are saddled with debt. So you got to think about those kind of circumstances too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, one of my buddies was based up in Campbell and I went up several times to his house and you know I was asking questions, I was trying to figure out how things work. And so we came out of the base one time and he just said and I can't remember now the name of the main boulevard there outside Campbell, but let me just take you down and you can see what's here and you're going by strip clubs, car dealerships, all the stuff. It's like Payday loans, yes, payday loans, and this is what the privates, the privates are there and they have people that are willing to take that meager paycheck they have and start using it for something. Bigger paycheck they have and start, you know, start using it for something. And of course you get a deployment.
Speaker 2:Or you know a lot of people here in the last 20 years were in active duty for war and maybe they re-enlisted so they might've got a 10, 20, $40,000. You know how many people go out and buy cars with those bonuses. They're not buying land, they're not buying 40 acres in Montana. You know for somewhere to go. When they get done, they're typically. You know for somewhere to go. When they get done, they're typically, you know, maybe they're married and they have, you know, trying to buy a house for their family or whatever. Yeah, it's wild what happens.
Speaker 1:It's nuts man. So let's get back to your book, brother. I mean, now you're into the military, the thriller genre, and you know you mentioned before. But some authors are like, hey, you know what, I'm not going to help you out, but I've noticed our crew of people around us around us even the New York Times bestselling authors that we know will always help out.
Speaker 1:Because, I look at it this way, your book's 300-something pages Normal people. When they get into these books, they knock them out pretty quick and then they're on to the next. When they get into these books, they knock them out pretty quick and then they're on to the next. It's almost like you're in a YouTube generation, a social media generation, where you need, need, need, right. So when it comes to competition unless you're rolling into the New York Times bestselling authorship like you're a Mark Rainey or something like that they are very helpful because their books are selling, but then they have six months until their next book comes out. So someone will knock their book out in a week and then they need more. Yeah, so I think it's imperative that authors help each other out, because it's just cross-promotion. That's the way I look at it.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Well, you're not really people, and I thought it originally there'd be a real big competition. Most of the people that read don't just read one book a year. Readers are typically pretty ferocious when it comes to like a fan of my books. He texted me Was it last night or Saturday night, I can't remember now Last two nights he texted me, Started the book that day and finished it Not something he normally does, but again, because it's 330 pages or whatever that one is, it's a short amount, it's a fast.
Speaker 2:My chapters are pretty short and it was intentionally done that way. I don't want people to stop reading. I want to go to the next chapter and be like Charlie did what, oh man? What did the jackal say this time? Something, probably stupid. So, yeah, so that, though, of having the fact of having a quick read. So they're done with my book. Well, I don't want someone to just buy. Babylon will rise and go. I'm done. I'm good for a while. They're going to go read whatever.
Speaker 2:So, whether it's Mark Graney or Jack Carr or Anderson Wilson or Don Bentley, any of these, any of these guys and most of those are all veteran, really veteran authors Um, they know there's no competition there and they know there's no competition coming from me because I don't have the big you know big five behind me that's helping to publish or push. It's me doing it and hiring people and stuff. So, yeah, but always been super, super supportive. Kyle Mills put something really nice out the other day. Brad Meltzer, who's not on Twitter really anymore, he went on Blue Sky and Instagram and you know he has kind words to say. So, yeah, the community's always been super supportive and it's humbling. It's humbling to know that some of your favorite authors are out there saying kind things about the fact that you're putting a book out as well.
Speaker 2:And yeah, it's not a competition to them. They have their books come out and their readers are much bigger readership than I have that are going to pick up their books and hey, yeah, maybe some of their readers will be like I got time. What's Babylon Arise? Look like, who is the Omega group and who's this Charlie girl who's going to kind of jack around these guys a little bit and put them in their place, basically. So I think the best compliment I got was actually Aima Adair. Aima basically said you know again someone who spent a career serving in the Navy and she's like I like Charlie, I liked what you did with the female character, I like the counterbalance to the boys and getting that compliment from her was kind of like okay, I guess I did do it. I thought I did it because I enjoyed the story and I'm my first critic and my first fan. But what is someone that's lived that world? Think of what I've, what I've done with it. So it's always great to get that feedback yeah, she's great man.
Speaker 1:I'm glad she's getting into screenwriting now too yeah we need solid screen like scripts out there, brother. I'm telling you, man, I love the lioness show is not bad. I really dig jackal. I don't know if you saw that one. I have not seen it.
Speaker 2:I'll have to add it to my list. My TV's been fairly minimal because I just have too much crap to do the Diplomat's, my kind of like. Oh, okay, that's my juice every now and then I'm only like three episodes into it. I'm also savoring it because I think I found it by chance one night months and months and months ago, maybe earlier this year or whatever.
Speaker 2:And I think I binged in like seven nights or whatever, and so I had to wait like six, eight months for it. So now I said, okay, you can watch one episode a week. That's kind of like your dessert after you did your job.
Speaker 1:So yeah, we need good screenwriters for sure. I am on a Miami Vice binge now, like the original. The old school one. I'm on season one, episode 10 right now. Don Johnson baby, because I could write while I watch, because I don't have to think about it.
Speaker 2:See, I can't. So that's one way we're different. If I have the television on, I'm watching the television and I'm not looking at my laptop. Now, music motivates me. I can get some, depending on what I'm writing. It depends on what I want to listen to, and sometimes it's just silence. Sometimes I just like silence, but that's one thing, and I was going to ask you about that. When it comes to writing because I can write, I finished a chapter, I started a chapter on the paddy wagon on my way down to Blarney castle and I finished that chapter over the Atlantic last Sunday. So I don't care where I am, as long as I end up, I'll put in noise canceling earbuds or whatever. If I block out annoying people making noise, I can write anywhere. So how about you? Where, where, where's your.
Speaker 1:To me, mostly everything I write is nonfiction, so I really just need facts, just facts. I write a ton of op-eds now. I write two or three a week, so I really just need facts. As long as I have the facts, I could write. And a lot of times when I'm writing that I need something in the background, like noise. Okay, so you do need that's what I need, like the tv or something, because I need my mind is not. I can't just have silence. There's no way, even with music, and music to me is like I love music so much that I want to enjoy the music so I wouldn't's a distraction if you're trying to write.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I can't just write because I want to like. I'm always listening to the lyrics and everything else and relating it to my life.
Speaker 2:Let's jump back to Pivot for a second. I had a thought pop through when you were mentioning earlier about USA Jobs and stuff. Are there some misconceptions that, that, that that maybe soldiers especially have as they're getting out of uh, about the process, or is there things that um are aren't as obvious as they should be for them when they're, when they're trying to look into, you know, a career after the military?
Speaker 1:I think a lot of people think, because they're a veteran, if they apply to a job in USA Jobs, they should get it automatically. They should get an interview automatically. But I've learned that you need to do the cover letters, you need to have the resume tailored for that job, because, let's say, there's one job opening and you have three positions, they get a thousand resumes. What is going to set yours apart? And that is a lot of the advice I give to people. I'm like, when you look at these jobs, your resume needs to marry up to that job, because the resume goes to an HR person first.
Speaker 1:An HR person may know nothing about these jobs. All they know is keywords. Well, they're going to look at the job description, they're going to look at the key points that the government wants to hire for, and then they're going to look at the resume and if you don't marry up to that or whatever their algorithm they use, if they're going to data mine it, if it doesn't marry up, you're not going to get to the next step, which is the certification list. The certification list goes to the hiring manager and the hiring officials and then they pick who they want to interview. So then they look at the actual resumes and go oh, this person looks like they align with the job we want more. If you just make a generic resume and send it to everywhere, shotgun it to everyone nine times out of 10, you're not going to make it to that next step.
Speaker 2:Okay, so there's a parallel to that too. I know we're jumping back and forth, but I think it's important to talk because we're talking about the world of fiction and nonfiction really Nonfiction in the sense of jobs and then fiction in the sense of writing novels. Same thing happens when people are trying to get agents is it's very easy for people to write one cover letter, one letter for an agent, a submission letter, and then where do you think that letter is going to go? If it's generic, it's going to go to what they call the slush pile. It's just going to sit there and an intern might look at it.
Speaker 2:And if it doesn't seem like it's tailored to that particular agent, if you don't have specific things in that letter that kind of indicate maybe, who that agent's clients are or what other books they've sold you're man, you're behind the curve and I mean, I don't know the number of how many query letters I sent from 2015,. 16 up until 2020, but it wasn't a small number, and that's the thing is, it's a numbers game. And probably same thing, obviously, too, for veterans that are looking for jobs. It's like, you see, that you can see that one job you want, that's good, pursue that job, but you probably want to broaden your scope and apply to more than one job, just like you want to go to more than one agent, because the chance of that one being interested in you and going to the next step is not super high for the most part.
Speaker 1:But with agents a lot of it comes out of networking. You still have to do networking in the federal government, right? You need to get your name out there yeah and a lot of times, once you get past the interview and stuff, they're going to call around and see anybody they know that knows you. Yep, you know they're going to try to vouch.
Speaker 2:You need to have people that are going to vouch for you yeah, my buddy that retired a couple years ago and this was this was man many years back now, probably 15 years ago I think, when he was first joining up with SF. He called me one day and he's like, hey, I need some information. So I'm giving this information. I was like, what's this for? He goes. You might hear from the FBI. And I'm like, what the hell do you do? He goes, no, nothing, he goes. I got to get security clearance for my job and I'm like, oh, okay, I said so, don't throw you under the bus. He's like, dude, dude, don't tell the Tijuana story to that guy. Okay, good, Check, got that one. So no kidding.
Speaker 1:No, I'm jumping all over the place. I'll probably wrap this up pretty soon Now. Did you go to IngramSparks or do the Barnes Noble route too, or are you strictly on Amazon right now?
Speaker 2:No, I did IngramSparks. I don't like IngramSpark particularly, but this book it went smooth. I've had Ransom Daughter. Last fall IngramSpark was a nightmare. Cover kept getting kicked off and it was totally with their specs. And I went back and forth with the guy that Todd Wilkins was helping me do the cover, went back and forth with Todd like man. They keep kicking it out and this is the reason they're giving. Well, the reason is it's not in the specs, it's in the specs and so I always crossed my finger with IngramSpark. The reason I didn't go with Barnes Noble is because if I set up an account with Barnes Noble, it only got me Barnes Noble.
Speaker 2:So I always do Amazon, and Amazon makes up probably 98, 99% of my sales honestly for every book. But I like to have it available for people that hate Amazon or don't like Amazon and there's a lot and they have reason to not like it. It just happens to be a good place to sell books if you're self-published and if you're traditionally published. So IngramSpark this time was really smooth for me and IngramSpark gets you everything else besides Amazon. In fact, actually this time I had it set up a little bit ahead of time and that's how you can get it. So for authors that are curious, they'll see an author author out there with a pre-order for an e-book. Well, that's the only thing you can do on Amazon. You can't have an Amazon pre-order for your paperback or hardcover. They keep saying they're going to have that ready, but it's not ready yet. It's not available. So how you get a pre-order is you actually do your IngramSpark setup, and there's other companies that do this as well. That will then get you a pre-order that pushes over to Amazon. That pre-order will also go to Barnes Noble, it'll go to Books A Million. So, yeah, so I actually had people, I had screenshots, you know, a month and a half before the book came out and people said, hey, I pre-ordered your book and I'm like, pre-ordered the paperback. How did you do that? Oh, that's right, ingramspark and I can see my numbers there. So, yeah, it's exciting, but I know the majority of my people are going to be going through Amazon.
Speaker 2:But I don't want to limit it and you know, eventually we talked about, you know, aspirations or publishing and all that. I'm comfortable with the indie world right now. Would I go traditional? I have a book in my back burner that I started a couple of years ago that I'll go back to in probably a few more years. It's a high level concept that probably would be interested by the publishing world. If I can ever get that one where I want it to and get comfortable, I might play that game of going down the traditional publishing.
Speaker 2:The problem with that and for people listening is I got a book that I believe in. That's really good. I go to get an agent that probably is going to take months it could take longer but say it takes months. The agent has a publisher that likes it. They send it out, they go out on sub, they call it, they go to 10 different publishers or maybe eight publishers, whatever, and one of those publishers really likes it. From the time I submitted that book to the agent before, that book is in Jason Piccolo's hands because I want to sell Jason this book. You're probably looking at two to three years realistically and to me that's what's kept me in the indie world. Now it's like man, I'm not done writing Supreme Justice. I can probably still have it out by summer without any problems as long as I stay to my task. If Supreme Justice I was trying to get traditionally published, that thing wouldn't come out until 2027 probably or 2026.
Speaker 2:And so that's part of the reason people are afraid to commit. You know, commit to sometimes traditional publishing, and there's also reasons they're afraid to commit.
Speaker 1:It's like not everybody wants to be a millionaire, and to be a millionaire in the, the, the literary world, is good luck. But a lot of people have a book. So many people, I know like, yeah, I'm writing a book. Well, how long have you been writing it? Oh, 10 People. I know like, yeah, I'm writing a book. Well, how long have you been writing it? Oh, 10 years.
Speaker 1:Write it finish it and publish it. Yes, have it edited, have it looked at, have people write it. But indie publishing man it's not. You know, in order to upload it into Amazon and everything, you're paying minimal amount of money for anything. Yeah, so just if you want the book out there, it's not like you don't have to think the old school parameters that you have to have a publisher, correct.
Speaker 2:Well, a couple of quick things. If you think you're going to write a book and be a millionaire, don't. You might, you might. But the stats, and the stats are out there if people want to go look them up. The amount of authors that make not a million, the amount of authors that make $100,000 or more a year, I believe, is 1.8% in the United States. So less than 2% of people and $100,000, while maybe 20 years ago you'd be like, oh, I'm doing pretty good. $100,000 in a lot of metropolitan areas right now is you're probably close to the poverty line. I mean, you're lower in class. You know your mortgage is $3,500 a month. Well, $100,000, you can't really afford a $35,000 mortgage payment, you know.
Speaker 2:So get that out of your head. If you want to be a millionaire, can you be a millionaire? Yes, the good news is you can. A lot of factors are going to happen and none of them are luck. Don't believe people when they say luck Nope, but you're going to have to work really hard. However, just what you said if your goal is to put a book out there, there's a lot of ways to do it. Do it the best you can, if you can afford it. Get a good cover designer, get a good editor Cover design. I love your cover man. Yeah, thank you A cover. My guy's in Serbia, my guy's in Serbia. So I love it, man, and I like yours. I love I love the simplistic of it.
Speaker 2:I love the patriotism up top, so I wish the light would agree with me better. Let's get it better.
Speaker 1:You know what? I probably should have made the cover not so glossy, but I was like I do matt, so I learned my lesson.
Speaker 2:I do matt covers all the time, partially for all my goofing up social media filming stuff, um, but where I want to go with that real quick, is if you want to do a book, do a book because I have a corporate job. I plan on still doing a corporate job for a while, unless they can me for some reason, whatever. But I try to work hard and I got a great boss. But but if something were to happen to me, I have books that I can leave my kids. Even if I sell 10 copies of my book, five copies or one copy, I have something I can leave behind.
Speaker 2:So if you have like just what Jason said, you have the desire to write a story, man, write a story. Reach out to one of us in the author world. We'll give you tips on where to go, maybe who the cover design should be, or who to use for editing, because there's so many. And go to someone that someone else uses, like we talked about earlier. Be very wary of someone that that slides into your dms and says, hey, I can do your cover for 99 dollars, or marketing well, how are you going to market and is your marketing going to equate to sales?
Speaker 1:yes, you're going to everybody in the world look at your book. But sales is where the real marketing is.
Speaker 2:Well, to add to that is everyone judges a book by its cover. Yes, so if your cover is absolute crap, you could have something that would make Hemingway cry inside that spine and there's a good chance no one's ever going to read it because your cover turned people off. The inverse is you could write absolute crap and have a good cover designer and you might sell a bunch of books, but it'll be the last books you sell, yeah, but you got to find a way to do them both. But find good people. Reach out to the writing community, and we both know people and we know so many amazing people in this community. Reach out to the writing community and people will embrace you and they will help you. Don't ask too much, but be reasonable and people will be reasonable back with you and then you know you might be able to hold your book in your hand.
Speaker 2:You might be able to, you know, go out and hold Jason's book in your hand too.
Speaker 1:Well, brother, I appreciate their time tonight. Man and everyone, check out. Babylon Will Rise from the author of the Body man, Eric P Bishop.
Speaker 2:And don't forget Pivot from the man that brought you the Protectors, dr Jason Pickle. Don't forget the doctor part. I did want to say this on my sister and on a funnier note so and I've joked with you about doctor in the past. So my sister's got a master's degree and my mom made a comment recently of I think she's going to go for her doctors at some point because she wants people to call her doctor. Like I don't know if I can do it. Even if she gets it, I don't know. I can call Dr Jason Piccolo Dr Piccolo, but my sister I changed her diapers when she was you know, she's much younger than me, so I was a baby when I was like 12. It's like I don't know if I can call her doctor, but kidding, jason, thank you, thank you for the book, thank you for what you do for veterans. You putting that positivity out and wanting to help people that, like yourself, served our country, is a higher calling and it's a calling that should be applauded. So thank you. Thank you, brother, you're welcome. Take care everyone.
Speaker 2:The Protectors and A Tale of Two Scribes. We're out.
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