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The Protectors® Podcast
Welcome to The Protectors® Podcast, where the valor meets the storyteller. Hosted by Jason Piccolo, a seasoned veteran and retired special agent, this series is a must-listen for anyone intrigued by the courage and tales of those who pledge to protect us. Beyond the front-line stories of bravery and dedication, this podcast goes a step further, weaving in the perspectives of those who bolster and narrate the protector's journey—featuring a remarkable lineup including New York Times Best Sellers and acclaimed Hollywood actors.
The Protectors® Podcast offers a diverse array of voices, from those who wear the uniform to the authors and entertainers who amplify their stories. It's a unique blend that highlights not only the raw realities faced by our protectors but also how their sacrifices inspire the narratives we cherish in literature and film. Each episode is a testament to the interconnected worlds of service and support, bringing listeners an unmatched depth of insight.
Dr. Jason Piccolo is a retired federal agent, former U.S. Army Infantry Captain (Iraq 2006), and author.
Past Guests Include:- Sean Patrick Flanery - Andrews & Wilson- Mark Greaney- Stephen Hunter- Remi Adeleke - Florent Groberg - Clint Emerson - Travis Mills
The Protectors® Podcast
527 | Eric Tung
We explore redefining wellness within the first responder community, focusing on the integral connection between mental and physical health. Eric shares personal insights and strategies for cultivating a well-rounded approach to wellness.
• The importance of defining wellness beyond just physical health
• Strategies for engaging in peer support within first response teams
• Insights on avoiding burnout through lifestyle choices
• The significance of seeking help and breaking stigma around mental health
• Rethinking recruitment practices to support new entrants into public safety
• Strategies for personal health planning for long-term success
• The necessity of creating a supportive culture around wellness
• Discussion on insights from Eric's personal experiences in the field
• The impact of good nutrition and exercise habits on overall well-being
Make sure to check out Jason on IG @drjasonpiccolo
Hey, welcome back to the podcast. Eric is back on the show, brother. We started doing. What we usually do on the show is we have the pre-talk and we have to talk about really good things, of course, welcome brother, welcome back.
Speaker 2:Thanks, doctor. Thanks, doctor, appreciate it. It's good to be back. Well, stop calling me doctor, that's crazy come on, you earned it. You've got me that I'll be that kind of playing.
Speaker 1:We're like we need a doctor and it's like I'm not that kind of doctor. You know when before he recorded something that popped in my head is like you do a lot of stuff but you bring up the word wellness and I'm always like, how do we define wellness? To me, like wellness could be, like your physical health, could be your mental health, but it's like in the. It's kind of like a keyword now in the LAO community. It's like, okay, we have wellness, okay, well, what is it?
Speaker 2:yeah, it's so many things. I mean I've debated since starting blue Grid back in 2020. And I've debated about the name ever since. But now it's there. It's part of it, but where it started, why I picked that was it's not just physical health.
Speaker 2:I was talking a lot about just offering insight for first responders and community right, Like the importance of fitness, the importance of nutrition, the importance of peer support and having your buddy checks and mental health.
Speaker 2:All these things I've learned in the career and I've only continued to learn and develop through my nerding out and just the job and all my roles. But when it comes to wellness, it's it also is just you running your life the best way you can, the way you want to run it, and that's where all these things it's not wellness just for wellness, and that's where I agree. It is such a buzzword. A lot of departments you know all the departments, corporations, whatever they're checking boxes. They're bringing in this program or this outlet, but no one's using it or it's not part of the culture. So really it just goes back to what are we trying to do, what is our mission and how are we investing in ourselves, in our teams, in our own personal health, and that goes far beyond the body and even mind. Right, it's relationships, it's all these things. So you can do what you need to do the way you want to do it.
Speaker 1:I think so you could have a wellness program, which is good, cause then you can lump it all in there, cause you know, if you think about the mental health aspect of it, that's your brain is one completely different function, but then your body's connected to it. Your brain is one completely different function, but then your body is connected to it. If your physiological isn't perfect, if it isn't good to go and I shouldn't say perfect, nothing is perfect but if you were not working on that, your brain is going to be in a fog, absolutely. Yeah, family stress, anxiety, it all falls into that.
Speaker 1:If your wellness isn't at, it's almost like I think about that app on your, on your um, your iwatch or whatever, where it's like the little circle and I'm like, if all that's not integrated into, well, let's say, that's your wellness circle, and if we're all not integrated in it, you're, you're damaged. And in this job in your job, I should say, because I'm retiring on your job if you don don't have all your rows together, then it can be deadly. So wellness should be a critical aspect of all of this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we all know what redlining is like and, yeah, it's first responders, it's military, but it's also civilians, right? And so I think that oftentimes we see it more accelerated, in a more intensified version where, yes, it could be life or death, absolutely, if you're not dialed in a lot of our, a lot of our peers, a lot of our best friends or even ourselves in the career. We realize those times, hopefully looking back rather than like right now. But we're, we're in the grind and you can redline for a while and we're pretty resilient folks, so we can actually redline a long time, but it's going to break sometime. If you don't reinvest or decompress or whatever the thing is, it will break. And so the question is do you want it to or do you want to? Do you want to run your career the length you want and come out thriving rather than just surviving, to use that adage?
Speaker 1:You know, when you bring up a point there I just wrote a little note about it is that you will break. Listen, 30 years with the military and 23 years I mean if you add it all together it comes up to 30 years with active reserve fed time, everything. There has been times over those 30 years and I'm very, very open about it because I want people to understand that you could be at a point where you're broken or you are about to break and get out of it. But the thing is I wanted to talk about is you will get to a point where you may break and you may have been broken or you may break. But we need to integrate in the beginning that it's okay to find help. You know I just had this conversation with Dr Jenna Casas the other day and that's one thing to find help. You know, I just had this conversation with Dr Jenna Casas the other day and that's one thing we talked about.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, it's like in the beginning of your career. It's all about tactics, techniques and procedures. It's like the TTPs man You're going to get up, You're going to, you know, this guy's going to pull out a weapon, You're going to draw, You're going to engage him or you're going to stop the threat. You know stop the threat.
Speaker 1:We never talk about stopping the threat that comes with our brain. So why don't we backtrack to this, Like when you're going through the academy, are you going through any training or anything? Something is not just a one-hour block of instruction or even like a few, that you start integrating this and add that into the FTO program as well? Yeah, the wellness is just it's right up there with if you're not in your mental game, you you quite literally could die.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and a lot of what you said. I love it. Just had Dr Jenna on as well. It hasn't aired yet, so shout out to her.
Speaker 2:But when you talk about you know, the TTPs you talk about like the black and white, the procedural stuff. It makes me think of this thing I've been learning out, which is really the importance of culture rather than policy per se. Right, so it's not about what's written down. Again, we're talking about checkboxes with agencies bringing in training and having a quote, unquote wellness policy. But if your people aren't actually doing things that aid their personal health, their mindset, their wellness, their decompressing, then what is it for? And so even when you talk about you know, I kind of hear this like this level of indoctrination hey, you have these new people. Let's talk about the importance of not just that it's okay to get help, but hey, it's preferred that you get help, it's preferred that you talk to a professional, and if you come out of that being like I didn't need that, then gold star, like that's even better.
Speaker 2:Now we're talking about preventative care, which is what most of us sadly a lot of us ignore our great benefits. We don't actually go see a physician or a doc regularly and get our blood work and get our vitals checked. But those that do we should be empowered that. Yeah, I'm checking on myself. Oh, that level is a little high, cholesterol a little high. Okay, let's dial it back. I'm not a bad person. I'm being responsible because I care about me, I care about my family. I want to do this job for as long as I want to do it right. So it's all back into the full crux of everything. It's all intertwined.
Speaker 1:And it's all intertwined and it's better to do it before you start leaning on the other aspects of it. Like you know, narcotics, booze, sex yeah. Any other advice that you could do to get away from the pain?
Speaker 2:work, yeah, work itself yeah, I've been there, man, and so I and I know that you speak from experience I I like to show that to you, not to be like, hey, it's me, but it's also me, I've been there, I've been in that. No, I'll just work more, I'll ignore my problems. Right, and some people recognize that even wellness can be its own distraction. Right, like people that are gym gymaholics, right, like workout freaks, and they they're not sleeping, they're over caffeinating and they actually there's, they look super fit, but they're not. Well, and we all know those people that are basically athletes and they redline and they tweak their back hard on something super dumb. Right, I've been there, I've been there too. Right, it's not the deadlifts, it's the building a snowman that you just completely out and you got to hit the Cairo, and hopefully you're doing that right, rather than medicating or something like that that right, rather than medicating or something like that.
Speaker 1:Man stress when you, you mentioned a word back, man stress to me has destroyed. Not it like it really beat my mind up, but a lot of people understand that stress. It affects your whole entire body. Now, when I was going through some rough points, probably six, seven years ago, with just things, with work, the stress level in my body it went right to my lower back, right to it. I mean, my back was spasmodic. I'd be stuck on the ground. I couldn't even walk because of that, just the stress and everything ended up into my back. It affects you and that comes down to your diet, it comes down to your mental health, it comes down to everything to keep your body going. Man, and you know, you put on a pistol belt, you put on all the gear and then you try to walk around your back.
Speaker 2:Oh god yeah, it's all those things and I've been. For some people, mind, body makes a lot of sense. But some of the listeners might be like, okay, really, you carry in your back. It's like, no, everyone carries things different. If you go get a massage, you think about it like whether it's you or that adage. A lot of people are like, oh, you carry a lot of stress in your shoulders, right, and then they're uptight like this, walking in. They're like, yeah, I do. And so it's all that physiological connection to stress For me. I noticed my physiological symptoms are oftentimes for sure.
Speaker 2:Sleep I can pass up because I'm exhausted from work and it's like death stress as well. I can still get to the gym, I can still caffeinate and lift my weights, but I'm going to crash out early. But I'm going to be up really early. I'll be up in the middle of the night, the wee, dark, early hours. I'm exhausted still, but I'm alert like that, wired but tired. That's that cortisol, and my worst bout of it was working graves, you know, dog handler, all that. And so I still contend with it, even though I'm like I'm not on the street, let's be real Like I'm in command, I'm mostly administrative, but I drive around and so I still think about the hypervigilance aspect. I listen to my guys on the radio so I still get tense when they're going to a thing and things sound a little dicey. So you're still connected with that and I'm sure you can resonate with that too. Just, you know you're out of quote, unquote the saddle, but you talk to law enforcement, military professionals all the time, so it takes you back.
Speaker 1:You don't just like check that out, you're not, you're in your next chapter, but it's a part of you in a lot of good ways and then in some, you know, some stressful ways as well. There are ways to to counteract it too, and I think that's one thing. We, you're not broken. You may have broken, but at this point, right now, you are not broken. So you have to be able to get to the point where, if you feel the cracks coming, or they've been there, like I said before, you could be at any myriad of it, but you're not broken. So you have to be able to start taking that one step, and that's one thing I'm going to reintegrate.
Speaker 1:What I said in the last episode with dr jenna is get out there and just do simple things like walk around the fucking block. You get so stuck in your vehicle where you're getting out, you're doing this, you're talking to some people here and there, but sometimes maybe, like after you have a meal, after you do anything throughout the day, just walk a little bit, three minutes, five minutes, get out and just move this body and get that blood flowing around. The diet is tough, man. The diet is tough on you. The diet is tough on you guys, especially when you're rolling around. You know, unless you, you, you pack your lunch, or you pack your meals or your dinners. It's tough, man, and you're going to end up with the fast food. You're going to end up with that carbs, the sugar.
Speaker 2:Everything's going to weigh your brain down man, that's where the habits come in Right. And so, like when I talk about routines and you know course and building, it's all about like how do you lower that low hanging fruit? And so I love the example of just walking right, and someone might be like that's dumb, it's not gonna make a difference, just walking around. I'm out of shape, I'm way overweight. No, it will, because it snowballs. You start there. And another example is like you're waiting for your coffee in the morning, anyway, you can go over to the couch and start doom scrolling. Or you do like five push-ups, you do five, ten, you do like a squat, you just hold the counter and you kind of, you know, you just feel your hips, you kind of move around, get that blood going right, and that would usually correlate into something else and I guarantee when you do that you'll feel better than not doing that.
Speaker 2:You phone roll like go over the living room, phone roll like for five minutes. It's not a lot. Same thing like the snacks. I've been there right like working graveyard so often. That's the. That's the excuse. Let's be real. It's an excuse. Only fast foods available. But just about every town has a 24-hour, you know, grocery store, right, you can get produce, you can get sandwich meat. It might not be the best, it might not be exciting, but it's, it's food sustenance or you know, people are into fasting, intermittent fasting. So you know there's always something if you're willing to try it. You don't have to go full bore on anything. Just add an apple to your already not ideal diet.
Speaker 1:It'll be more ideal you'd be surprised when you start looking at carbs, man. I thanks to the guys from reps for responders they, um, they had, they had me go through and get my blood work done and stuff like that and I found out I was just eating way too much carbs, man. Whether it was sugar, whether it's bread or anything else, there was so much. And now, like I'm thinking, when I pick something up, I look at the carb. First thing I look at is carb count. I'm not looking at fat content, I'm not looking at anything else. And then I'm like, okay, you know, uh, I've noticed that once I cut those carbs out, like these walks and everything else, I noticed the bloat in my gut and, I'm just being frank, the bloat yeah, but it has completely gone down for real.
Speaker 1:yeah, like the t-shirts before would be tight around the gut and now it's like I've noticed, like since the walking, just walking and integrating a better fuel in my body, that it will go down and it does happen pretty quick.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Today I started integrating strength training. So then I'll do my 10, 15,000 steps a day and on the weekends I try to do 70 miles one of the days. That's legit. Yeah, that's a lot. I used to rock a lot but I found out if I just walk I don't need to rock, and I'll get back into rocking eventually. But what I'm trying to tell people is like me, 52 years old. At one point I was pushing through, I was over 300 pounds. Now I'm 60 pounds lighter. I mean, there's so much more that I'm ready to do in my life that a lot of it came down to depression. It came down to stress. It came down to stress eating sweets. Man, when I'm stressed I will eat the shit out of some fucking. I shouldn't swear so much.
Speaker 1:I got the blue grit well, believe me, I know I, but uh, it's just that you eat and eat me just to try to get, because you know it's it's one, and that's the thing. It's like you do something that's negative to your body whether that's booze, whether that's anything else, like anything else to to get rid of this, this thing in your brain. That's that all comes down to what. What do we talk about when we first started? Mental wellness, wellness yeah, all intertwined.
Speaker 2:And that's where I love the examples you gave right, that that blow, it can be so pervasive and when we're in that really unhealthy lifestyle it's hard to notice the difference. But if you do toggle it back and know thyself, right. So you even said, like you know, kind of the the junk food binge eating. I'm there, the stress eating. Um, if I'm super stressed and I have something that's not ideal, which is tough with kids, like I would keep it out of the house. Now there's snack food, right, and I'll destroy the bag of whatever it is plantain chips, jar of macadamia nuts like I've done that, like a thousand calories. Sit down at the couch. Jar of peanut butter I've been that guy. Uh, I have rules. I don't take the peanut butter to the couch like I'll, I stand there, have a scoop, put it away, because I've been there right.
Speaker 2:So you got to know thyself and then to an extent and when you start to kind of clean up things and I love how you get the example of like looking at labels right, like seeing, like seeing the carb content of things it's not to be dogmatic, like some people do great on carbs, but in general, like people, if you go to the more minimally processed food. You notice less bloat, right, and so I. I grew up like a lot of Asian Americans. A lot of Asians aren't really handling lactose that well, but I grew up with crushing milk all day long, right so all through through college. But then once I decided to just take a beat and stop, man, it really destroyed me when I got back to it. And so it's just like knowing and trying things and, uh, to take a break or cut down a certain level of whatever the thing is. You'll generally notice like you just feel better, your joints are less inflamed, all these things. You know the blow you're talking about.
Speaker 1:And out of sight, out of mind whenever my daughter comes over. Like you know, if we go out like listen even now, like if she comes over, or when she comes over, we're like, okay, you know what, let's go out and walk down to the grocery store, down the block and get some snacks or get some sweets, and I'll buy like like a low-carb ice cream, bars and stuff, yeah, yeah. But then she'll buy the good ones, you know, like the full-on, like you know the, the magnum bars or the caramel, and I'm like you better bring those home with you, because if you put them here, they're gonna be.
Speaker 2:I'll eat them, and I will, man.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's what you know. It's just out of sight, out of mind. With some of the stuff too, it's like if you don't, if you don't just go, if you don't buy it, you won't eat it, right? Yeah?
Speaker 2:do you have an aversion to throwing that away if she, if she doesn't take it home with her right?
Speaker 1:I can't do that, come on, I can't either.
Speaker 2:So that's why I was asking first, uh, and my wife's made fun of me so many through the years and she's like, why can you not throw it food? And I'm like I was raised not to, it's a huge thing, um, and so I just can't. But she's like, but you're, you're, it's the same as wasting it in a way, right, because just because you're consuming it, one, you didn't want to. Two, you feel guilty about it. Three, it's like extra calories you didn't want, and especially if it's junk food. So you actually you feel worse, you feel bloated, you're not sleeping well. So like, how is that better than just throwing it away because you know you're not giving it to someone else?
Speaker 1:and I'm like yeah, it makes sense. I guarantee you and I both grew up with the cleaner plate. Yeah, I feel even if I have ketchup left on my plate, I feel bad. It's so crazy, like if I have rice and all this other stuff, like I gotta eat all yeah, it's like, not even like, not even a fraction of a cent.
Speaker 1:It's like so nominal that's not worth it, man. But I'm and this is kind of like one of those preaching things but it's like really just get out there and walk a little bit, just start working on this, because it all comes down to the end of the day, it's like if you were in this profession and you're out there, really your physical health is what's going to save you Back up, especially in so many of these different departments out there. It's not right around the corner and you cannot expect anybody to jump in and save you or help you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and a lot of us don't. We're such caregivers, we're protectors. Yeah, and a lot of us don't.
Speaker 2:Man, we're such caregivers, we're protectors, a lot of us, especially when we're not mentally well, when we're not feeling great, if we were honest with ourselves, we'd be like, okay, so what? Something happens to me? Okay, but what about the person you're sworn to protect? What about that victim or that bystander? And then we can get real with ourselves and be like, okay, I do owe it to them because I do have a job. That's more than a job. And then it's also your buddy, right? So if you are the one running back up running code for 10 minutes before you can even get to your your buddy that needs help. Are you jacked up and you're not doing anything quote, unquote, physical. But you are right, your adrenaline is popping, your blood's racing, like, do you want to come out like out of breath just because you run a code and you're worried about your buddy, or do you want to be ready to perform? And that's what I like to remind people too is like, even for the people that aren't into the quote-unquote wellness, they think all this is kind of fluffy. They just want to do their job.
Speaker 2:Say, okay, you care about your brain. You're talking about brain health, right? Like? Your brain is part of your body. It requires oxygen, it requires blood and there are other things, inputs that will help it optimally sleep, exercise, nutrition, like it'll make your brain make better, quicker decisions. Do you not want that in the critical moments, or even the non-critical moments, and most people would resign and say, yes, you're right. Okay, I'll start with something. It's not a chamber blend. Just start somewhere.
Speaker 1:The other thing is to be an example, and the example is also to be educated, educated educated educated and motivated.
Speaker 1:Educated, motivated, because when your brain is functioning with full oxygen capacity and when you get a good diet and you're not lethargic, you can make better decisions, not only on the street. But let's say you do want to get promoted. Let's say you do want to further your education. Let's say you just want to be smarter. You need to work on everything. You need to work on what you're putting in your body in order to have a clear head, absolutely so let's talk about that. You know you're on the job for a while and you're like, huh, maybe I'm ready for the next step. And I know you're really the job for a while and you're like, huh, maybe I'm ready for the next step. And I know you're really big on I'm not just being an admin and not just being like, hey, you know what? I took a good test and now I could be a leader. Because it's not just that man, it's not yeah, it's thinking about all the things.
Speaker 2:I think we all, we just need to recognize that everyone's a leader. And those that even say, well, I don't, I don't want to ever promote, whether you're a recruit or you're midway through your career, it's no, you have to lean into this concept of leadership. And that's ownership, right, that's just taking taking control of yourself and running your life and running your career uh, being a, being an asset and contributing positively to your team, right, everyone wants that at some base level. And so when you think about that and you think about if promotion is the thing, then it's just a parlaying of that. And so to show up your best way is how you're going to be the best leader. And you're right, it's absolutely more than just a test.
Speaker 2:I made a guide for promotional process to help those people that have the right intentions, but then they do have to jump through the hoops and figure out the game, because life's a series of games. But essentially it's just like identify what you're about. And you can easily start building that leadership philosophy by looking internally and looking at how you want to be perceived, what you want your legacy to be, what influences were positive and negative in your own trainer cadre that influenced you, your own bosses through the years. We've all had amazing ones, we've all had dismal ones, I'm sure, and everything in the middle, and crafting that all together to make your brand, who you want to be, who you want to show up as.
Speaker 1:I think you just brought up another solid word brother brand. Because, listen, we live in a social media era. Yeah, you know my brand. If you look at my social media, my brand is what firearms, it's podcasting, it's writing, it's walk-in or some other shit. But a lot of my brand is all around those three things. But when you're a leader, you have to have a brand. People can't look at you and be like, okay, well, they can't look at you. They're either looking in a couple different ways. You're a shit.
Speaker 1:You shouldn't be in that leadership position. Someone should be better than you, or you could own it and be like you know what. I worked my ass off to get here, and not only did I get here, but I'm also going to maintain this. But not just maintain it. I'm going to continuously learn and be better at it. So leadership and management really needs to take that next step. That's the brand their brand should be. I am a solid leader. I'm going to own this, and you know what you're going to get when you look at my brand.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I got more comfortable with the concept of brand when I was in recruiting, because you have to be aware of what you're putting out. Your product, we're all products when we walk around and some people think that it's like, okay, you're talking about politicking and playing games and I just said everything's a game and I'm just trying to be real with it. Like, I think it's much beyond that. But when we break down how people perceive us, it is important, right? So we're talking about leadership and you're talking about the you know kind of the scummy leader, the person that no one wants to follow.
Speaker 2:But you know, another elusive one is the person that is the flip flopper, right, like, where you can't. I don't know if you're ready to tease what you're working on, but but you shared with me prior. So what I will say is that no one wants the person that is just like, well, I don't know like they want to look at your leader or even your peer or your subordinate and know what they're about. Right, like, who are you, what are you about? And that is your brand, right? That's your value system, that's what's going to govern your decision making, and so for me, people might absolutely gravitate away and some people that work for me absolutely would be like that guy's goofy, like I don't like his style.
Speaker 2:You know, he's into wellness, he's into whatever, and I wish he would, you know, speak to us in this way or he over communicates or he overanalyzes. Like sure, I I'm not for everybody, but I like to think that everyone knows what I'm about, and probably more than most, because I have all these public platforms where I literally talk about it and write about it. But all to say, like, if you don't know what you're about, how are your people going to know what you're about? So you got to work on it.
Speaker 1:It takes time believe me, brother, you have to be open about it. The problem with a lot of times and you have to be realistic. Look, whenever I think about admin, I think about like the GS14s, 15s, sess and stuff I worked with.
Speaker 2:It's a lot of letters.
Speaker 1:What's that?
Speaker 2:It's a lot of letters.
Speaker 1:Well, so like in federal government like you know your GS levels, like Well, so, like in federal government. Like you know your GS levels, like your general schedule that's how much money you get paid and you know baseline agents go up to GS-13. Then after that, you know, you promote up and you know what you're getting. With a lot of people, Some people say, hey, you know what, I want to be an SES. I'm going to do this. To be an SES, a senior executive service, or like with you, I want to be a sergeant, I want to be a lieutenant, I want to be captain someday. I want to be a chief.
Speaker 1:A lot of people don't own it. They're like ah, you know, if they give it to me, they'll give it to me, I'll take it. If they take it, own it. If you want to be the damn captain, you want to be the chief, own it. And if you want people to really respect you when you own, it is to be an actual leader and don't do, don't scrape over people's backs and do what you need to do to get to the top.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and like what I was saying before. What you said about teasing is like look, I wrote a book called make a decision, damn it. Make a decision, damn it. And you know it's not a huge book and it comes back down to military leadership. And you know it's not a huge book and it comes back down to military leadership. And you know, I was enlisted and then when I went to ROTC they graded us on making decisions and making it like it doesn't have to be the greatest decision in the world, but you have to make a decision.
Speaker 1:You know it stuck with me. Rotc is pretty listen, man, it's not the hardest thing in the damn world and the training is not hard. But I've seen some people that turn out to be incredibly bad leaders. But one thing they did do when they got graded was make a decision. But then you have really good leaders who are so hesitant to make a decision. And then you have those ones that are out there who want all they want to do is get to the top. And then you have those ones that are out there who want all they want to do is get to the top, and they know that if they make the wrong decision so they don't make a decision at all that they will not get to the top. So my book is basically this Make a decision, Damn it, Make it. Yeah, it comes. Decision making Listen. Long term decisions yeah, you could take some time to do it. If you're on a street, your decision needs to be right now, Literally right now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, a couple of things come to mind. First off is that awareness. So if you know you're indecisive, there's a couple of things you can do right. Competence breeds confidence, so you study, you pick brains, you find mentorship, you train, and then with that comes reps and experience. Right, so you can alter that, you can take control of some aspect of that. The next piece is like.
Speaker 2:I recognize that as a young cop, like I knew, I'm still hyper analytical, right, I'm in my head, I'm thinking about all these things, I'm looking at all these trying to I nerd out, I'm trying to find different perspectives and I just love it Right, find different perspectives, and I just love it right. But at the same time I realized I wanted to be a canine officer and I had to basically quarterback these, these calls, these incidents and coordinate units, and I knew that I needed to get over trying to get the best outcome right. I just needed to go with a pretty good one, right. And talking to a SWAT team leader at my department where he this is old adage, but paraphrase so many different ways, but essentially like a good decision now is better than the best decision later, because seconds matter, right? Uh, fractions of seconds matter. And so I think about that. And also, uh, essentially another thing came to mind. I had retired a captain he's a sausalito county, uh, or sausalito, california captain, uh, william frost on my, and he breaks down police leadership specifically in this book.
Speaker 2:But in that he talked in the interview. He talked about how so many local chiefs generally are retirement eligible, right, and if they're not a famous adage and everyone says it, everyone hears it and we make it okay in some way, that's saying like, hey, you know what I got to mind, my P's, and's and q's, I gotta kind of play ball because I'm an at-will employee. He's like man, like outside of our, our contracts and our unions, like the world is at will, and so if you're not willing to take a stand for what you believe in, why are you even doing this job? And so I was like man, like you know, mic drop there.
Speaker 2:Because and I'm not disparaging people, but I think that is a piece of the culture that we need to buck back on, especially those that are coming up, because if you are, if, if it's me and I decide I want to be a chief of some small town and I'm 48 years old and I'm not eligible for my pension until 53, well, I got to recognize I'm going to roll the dice, and maybe things don't work well if the city manager is just not a fan of what I'm about. But if I know why I'm doing it, if I get canned, I need to be okay with that when I take the job in the first place you know, you brought up a solid thing, man retired in place too.
Speaker 1:These chiefs get out there in these small towns and they don't. If they don't leave, the other people can't move up. Or if they're stuck in these small towns they don't have the capacity to rearrange their, their personnel. And what I'm trying to say is a lot of times it's good old boy network. They have their people, they know what their commodity is and then they don't want, want to adjust things. And sometimes these chiefs get that job because they know someone. And that's the reality of these small tournaments. You could have like a department with 13, 14 people, 10 people, and a chief may have known a city manager and he may have been like a captain somewhere else or a lieutenant and all of a sudden, now he's an officer, right?
Speaker 2:yeah?
Speaker 1:He gets over there and then he's like huh, then he gets that thing where you just said, well, he might not be old enough to really be able to collect that pension. So then all his decision making comes down to you, guys and girls. You go out there, you do your job, but you don't do anything proactive. Yeah, you're just a puppet now, right, you're an extension of?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you know William Frost. He talks about San Mateo right In that example. It's a huge agency, but a lot of that I knew kind of. You know half my career neighboring town. I know what they're about. I know that our leadership would blend and they're qualified right, of course, like networking is a thing in every sector. However, yeah, we do see some really poor examples of that unfortunately play out small town, huge county, um, yeah, so it's something for sure. Uh, I like how you bring up up that staying in the seat too long issue versus some of these career chiefs usually bigger cities that they just know that they're playing the bigger and better game and they'll make some moves and then they'll get picked up somewhere else. And who suffers generally, if they're all political, is the officers right, just trying to get some cohesion and some movement you know.
Speaker 1:I'm glad you brought that up to a lot of like. How many times have you seen some of these big city cops, big city chiefs rotating around the country are ending up in think tanks and this and that.
Speaker 2:It's like the same. Some are great, some are not.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the same cast of characters, brother, and it's just like that's the space. When it comes down to a lot of these leadership people are the same cast of characters, especially when you're looking at these big departments. They move around, they move around, they come back, they do this, they do that A lot of times, like when I said the retired in place, it's not just the retired in place. A lot of people want to think, retiring place, they're not doing anything. But some people can be 60 years old, they can be 55 years old, they can be punching out. They can punch out whenever they want, but they don't want to leave. If they leave, it opens up opportunities for everybody else.
Speaker 1:There has to come a point in your career, in your life, life, where you're like okay, the benefit of me being here is not worth me staying, like with me, with the federal government. I really, when I hit 50, I retired because it didn't make sense for me to stick around anymore. Monetarily wise, I'm not going to make any much, really limited amount of money if I stick around for another five, seven years. So I'm retired um seven years. So I'm mandatory, so get out, and that's just a thing out there. If you were listening to this and you were like 10 years behind your prime and you can retire and there's no sense of you sticking around. Just maybe it's time to think about other things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they don't think about that and it goes right back to wellness man to come full circle like it's. It's people not having other interests, other hobbies. Right, you're, you're an author, you have a phd, you're, you're, you're a perpetual student in the game. You know we're talking about different projects and you have this podcast, all these different platforms seeing you on the news. It's. It's living outside, beyond, and this is all like para career, right, like what we do outside of work. A lot of this is like aligned with work and work brain. But there's also family, there's your kids and hobbies and getting outside, right and talk about rucking right before we, uh, before we got on, but, all to say, like it when you have nothing else.
Speaker 2:It could absolutely be terrifying and a lot of people have shared about that. A lot of retirees talk about how, yeah, they were terrified to leave and they stayed on and they recognized, you know, they had to find a retiree kind of social media group and then they felt that community again, right, and then they got nudged, they got pulled by some buddies to get into fishing like they used to back in the day, right, whatever the thing is. But you need something or else you know you're on that branch. If you don't see other branches within reach, then you're going to cling to that thing.
Speaker 1:It's a foothold. You need a foothold into a new mission and you know, I started building my brand slash outside life well before I retired, well before. Obviously, there was a lot of personal reasons. I had to do that, just with everything going on in my career. But find a creative outlet. Find another outlet. It's not just the job and not finding another job and everything about the job. You know, podcasting was great for me. It's very creative. It's an outlet for me to actually talk to people.
Speaker 1:Writing is something I always love doing. You know, I got a Facebook post this morning from 2017. It was a memory saying you know, my next thing I want to do in my life is I want to write, write, write and write books and I want to be a journalist and this and that and I'm doing it. But back then I knew I. Back then I knew I wanted to do something different. So it doesn't matter what point of your career is. It doesn't matter if you're a year on the job or if you're 40 years on a job, mid-career, whatever Look at something outside of the job. And we're not talking about finding advice. We're not talking about, hey, I'm going to go drink my world away or I'm going to drink every different beer in the world. It's like just I mean, hey, you know you could do that, but it's your own prerogative. But find something and get a foothold into it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, find something that excites you, and it doesn't have to be. It probably shouldn't be about money until it is right, if it makes sense and it's what you really want it to be. But anything I mean not to sound too cheesy, but really anything could be about money. But it could just start as a hobby, right? I found so much, I suppose, like personal agency in starting BlueGrid and a lot of it was just trying to put out positive content. I never thought I would monetize this, but when people asked I was like I don't know, maybe just trying to have an open mind. But it was all about just sharing free advice, workout stuff, nutrition stuff, peer support stuff, you know, and then a little bit of like hey, like a little bit of empathizing with a badge, that that kind of content. Um, you know, sure I've done cheesy things, but mostly just hey, this is just how cops feel in this kind of situation. This is, this is how stressful to not pull the trigger and got a lot of resonance and positive feedback from that. And then it's grown into these other things because I like to go where the need is there, right. So people ask questions. I do more on that and that's why I have a guide for hiring, like I don't. There's no part of me that feels like I should be the hiring guide, like police hiring, you know, kind of advice guy. But people keep asking and I put it out.
Speaker 2:I keep doing episodes on the podcast. I have a guide you can get because it's helpful and I feel like man Clay Surratt is a guy, a military veteran, that he's in the private sector but he rules and he does a lot of MMA and martial arts and physically trains people and works with people in the community. But one of the things he said in one of my really old episodes was like one of the best medicines is just helping other people and you don't have to be a cop, you don't have to be a soldier, you don't have to be a fed to help people Absolutely not. Like there's a ton of people that live like literally on my street that help people in all kinds of ways, including myself, you know, just as a neighbor at times, right, and so just finding that thing. There's a lot of different things that people can do. They just are open to it and accept that I'm glad you brought up the hiring guide too.
Speaker 1:that's a big thing and yeah, and and I always tell people that before you did a hiring guide is that it doesn't matter if you've ever worn a uniform, it doesn't matter if you've ever had a badge on or anything where you had to swear an oath to allegiance to the country or anything else. You, you can always give back, you can always be a protector. You can always be a protector, absolutely.
Speaker 1:But the thing I do want to talk, about is hiring guide, because there is not a lot of solid information. One thing about you is you will not just take your own personal experience. You'll go out there and find out what other agencies are doing. So that's one thing I do want to. One of the reasons I want to talk to you today, too, was about the hiring guide.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, thanks, man. And so again it comes out of just a lot of traction and continuing to have people reach out saying, hey, like I'm having trouble with this application process, I can't interview for crap, I'm super in my head. It's all the same things as when I took over our recruiting at my department in 2021, like the hardest time, and I went in like thinking that this was the most impossible job. But we're going to throw everything at the wall and I'm going to do, you know, do my damn just to to help my my P, do my piece, run my lab, but just connecting with people and answering literally all their questions, sitting down, getting on the phone and then realizing a lot of the same common things, and then remembering when I was a new applicant, like I didn't know any cops. So you're just, you're just throwing stuff at the wall. You know to use that that adage again. And it was a series of really cruddy interviews and a series of luckily, I had enough insight to like be. Really, as I said, I was analytical, so I filled out my background packet like to a t and I knew, like you lie, you die. So I was like I will put in every chippy little thing where the background investigators laughing at me and the person next to in the cubicle next to us on a you know, on a weekend is laughing because they're hearing all the embarrassing things I'm admitting to and my call up nicknames and things like that. But I just put it all out there. But I succeeded after a few iterations and so years later, being on the hiring side and seeing how I read an applicant in a packet and a name, or a name and words, not a face, is like what, what I'm turned off by right and it's it's little things. And so just putting that all in, rather than all these conversations like putting that all like a 30 page guide, it's a, it's basically an ebook, right, so you have all that.
Speaker 2:But also beyond, just what's expected, every stage of the game and how to excel and how to be ready for the different interview prompts is mindset and I love how you have literally a book to help people transition out of the military. But a lot of that is just like recognizing what they are up against, what they need to adopt. You know that ownership. So in the guide there are nods to hey, here's how, here's what to expect on all these different physical tests that you may need to go through in all places in the country. However, don't just train for the test. Here's how to train for the test, but don't just do that.
Speaker 2:Back to what we're talking about. If you want to be an asset, if you want to actually do this job to the to the ability that you should when you take that oath, then you need to be more than that, and every day you show up right now as an applicant like make sure you're doing something for your physical health every day, make sure you're doing something for your mental health every day things like that. That's going to truly make you successful in the job, beyond just getting hired there's so much more than just getting through that hiring.
Speaker 1:There's the Academy, next Academy prep. There's and, like you said, the actual job. So you bring that up. It's great. It's actually train for post job. You know what. You're going to get the job. Keep the keep that in your mind. You're going to get the job, but what am I going to do to be good at this job and not just be like, oh, I got a job, that's cool. You know my son my son had a job at the grocery store.
Speaker 1:It's like, okay, cool, you got a job at the grocery store, what's next? Use that job to build your resume. So you know it's anything, it's just getting the job is great. But what are you doing next?
Speaker 2:Yeah and uh, yeah. So, on that, I love how you you continue that conversation because I'm excited because it's a pretty new guide, right, it hasn't been live that long and people are saying they're seeing the value they're interviewing better than now. They are not as afraid of the psych eval because they know what to expect. You know they're not going to. There's no way to game it, but just show up as yourself. But you can come in more confidently, calmly and you will do better, just like most things in life confidently, calmly, and you will do better, just like most things in life. However, I'm excited. Down the months, you know, months down the line, maybe next year, I'm excited to circle back with people and I expect that people are going to say, hey, like this thing or this article or this little, this little blurb you had is actually what helped me through academy. It's actually what helped me deal with this difficult field training, uh, officer, right, um. So that's what I'm kind of stoked about and it is like how you do one thing, how you do everything. So you're setting the groundwork for this successful mindset and a career which is absolutely beyond as you said, right, and you recognize this beyond just getting hired, if I could offer. One more thing is, like in my command job, like I try to touch base and even when I was, you know, in hiring and training sergeant for a little bit, I touch base with new folks and ask them what their goals are. And this goes to an earlier piece of the conversation you had where I was super stoked and impressed when someone actually says I'm interested in detectives down the line. I mean I'm really young, I have a whole career, I have 30 years and maybe I would go up to you know, commander, maybe I would go up to assistant chief or chief, you know, commander, maybe I would go up to assistant chief or chief. I'm like, yes, like who has the you know the cojones to say that generationally like not really anyone in my generation when we were new so good on them because they have that, they have that fire, they're aware that they may go all these different ways. But on the converse, to have somebody and I know a lot of times it's just kind of a lot of times it's kind of sarcastic, but not really.
Speaker 2:When you ask someone hey, what's your goal? You're a solo officer on probation, and they're like just make it through probation. I'm like what a shitty goal, right. It's like well, how about you get through probation as, like the, the bare requirement? Because you have a family that's depending on you and you are proficient. There's a reason why you're not in field training. You do that, but your other goals could be excel through probation. And how do you do that? By doing this, by hitting up my serge, you know. By finding a mentor, by following up on my cases, you know, finding a training that I can go to, that the that the bosses will sign off on, like continue to develop, and that might also be like working out three times a week at least. It might be taking some time and writing down some gratitude twice a week at at least, whatever the thing is, but I mean talk about one minimal, like not even goal to this really expansive holistic goal.
Speaker 1:The biggest point is that you don't stop, but that also is not like we listen. We've talked a lot about physical health, mental health and wellness, but there is something that that's really key, and you mentioned it is mentor, network and mentor. I think networking and mentoring is one of the biggest things for your career. Absolutely. I wouldn't have had the last job I had in the federal government if it wasn't through, like LinkedIn, networking. So you have to network and networking and mentoring are kind of integrated, because if you have a good mentor, their network will now become yours. So you might be a junior officer, you might be a new officer, you might be even 10 years, 20 years in a row, but if you get a solid mentor, then you're going to maybe build up some of those pathways for you.
Speaker 2:To get to that next point yeah, and a lot of people think that is some huge investment, like I have a lot of mentors through through social media, through LinkedIn, through the podcast, like you're one of them, right, but am I, am I hitting up Dr Jason, and am I hitting you up?
Speaker 2:you know, month after month. No, like we actually haven't talked a long time, but early on, like I saw what you're doing. You've been doing the podcast game. You've been writing much longer than me I have not written a book, even literally before this call. Like you're giving me tips on things to think about when I one day write a book and so it's all just like we're all trying to be helpful and a lot, of, a lot of folks aren't going to be like starting their own social media for the law enforcement industry and starting podcasts. That's totally cool, but you can gleam all these things. Hopefully.
Speaker 2:I've said something that is treating like a mentorship tip to you, jason, as well, right, and so that's why, if you're listening to this, if you've been listening in this long or listen to my show, you are into sub development, right, so you are seeking those, those mentors. I think it was tim ferris I heard this years and years ago where he actually makes a nod that a lot of the mentors he considers he has not met and a lot of them aren't even alive, right, he's talking about historical figures. He's talking about you know, we could talk about, like abe lincoln. How much could we learn from abe lincoln by reading about him, reading his speeches, learning about the tough decisions that he had to make in one of the hardest times in american history.
Speaker 1:So like, shoot like, the possibilities are endless and mentoring I do want to caution people is not just about an ask. You're not asking someone just to help you with your career and to help you get to that next level or whatever. Like you and I like you said before this, we almost kind of come in, we're mentoring each other in a way, because it's like you want to write a book, I want to do this, and you're helping me. I'm like, oh, you know, that makes a lot of sense, it's a lot of. It's just about having a conversation, yeah, and and and really understanding what kind of value you're going to bring to the next phase of whatever you're going to do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, it's connection right and investment and requesting feedback or you know just asking for, you know picking a brain and you know, again, you could do that from a distance, you could do that remote. But yeah, just just try it, like so many things just come down to trying, like this whole conversation, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and speaking of what we were talking about before, too, is you're, you're developing a course now, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so get gritty, and that's talking about. It's really coming from the ask right and ask the people, but also people asking all these health things, and I don't really post a ton about health. I'm more interested in leadership and that's just the majority of my job now. But my content follows what I spend 40 plus hours a week thinking and working on. And so that is essentially like why am I resilient? Why, you know, what have I observed? Like what is the impact of health and routines and mindset, and putting that all together to things I talked about earlier, which is wanting to create a framework to teach people the equivalent of like hours and hours of coaching, but give them the prompts, give them the experiences and lessons of like how can you work on your life a little bit at a time to make sure you are optimal, right?
Speaker 2:So it's career development, it's personal development, it's looking at your family, looking at your support networks, looking at the different facets of health. I'm not going in and giving you financial advice, but I'm telling you, hey, you need to mind your financial wellness right. You need to think about or sit down with your spouse or family or loved one and say, hey, how can we improve our situation? Or are we on track If we don't know? How do we find out those little tiny things that all come together and really trying to do this job, because this job is more stressful than most jobs. How do we do this job the best of our ability, for as long as we so choose right Whether it's 10, 20, 30 years and come out of it better than we were before.
Speaker 1:And you know what these jobs I'm learning now is that we're different generations, you know, compared to the new generation, and the new generation almost looks at some of these jobs as kind of like the corporate world. In the corporate world you roll into something three or four years, five years, you move on. I've I've said, you know, I think a lot of the the future of policing is people are going to be like, hey, you know what I've always wanted to try, that it may not necessarily be a career but it might get me to the next thing I want to do. It might be something I just want to try. I don't want to do it.
Speaker 1:You know, I wrote an article and it got a lot of pushback. I told people I'm like, uh, I think it was for police, one where I'm like the model should be you should have when you're having recruiting shortages is make it look like maybe you have a four or five year term, you do as a cop, maybe you get some sort of benefit out of it and but maybe not look at this as a career anymore. You know, maybe look at it as like, hey, you know it's a job, but if you do do this job, know that it's not going to be like any other job you've ever had.
Speaker 2:Yeah, man, I like that because I had a similar. I made a blog post. I don't even remember if I pitched it to any publications. This was years ago, this is pre 2020. But it was the notion of a backup career. And we carry backup guns, we carry backup magazines and backup lights and you know, two is one, one is none. But what about our career? And, like, I've been as guilty as anyone else until the last prior you know few years. But if I couldn't do this job, if I, either, you know, my family just said no, you're done. Or if I blew up my knee off duty and I just couldn't get cleared, like what would I do?
Speaker 2:And in 2020, I was talking to my patrol squad, like as a sergeant, and I was like we need to think about this. You know, I'm going to sit down with each of you and I want you to talk about what we're going to talk about. What would you do if not this? And some of them are super. Like you know, it wasn't like a huge accountability session. It was just like, oh, you're interested in welding. You like welding? Cool, keep welding, keep doing all your days off. Like have fun, like do some some art, like help a buddy fix their fence with some welding, look up what that costs to go through a course, and that's like my. I'm not going to check back in, I'm not going to like ask you to report back. That's my nudge to helping you be better and I truly believe that when we have options and we recognize options, we are going to be better recognized, like with our current station, right.
Speaker 2:So it's almost that ironic thing of if, if, if a bunch of cops realize that they don't have to just be cops. They have opportunities and they've learned a ton and they have. They have skills and talents that they can take elsewhere. A lot of them may be totally fine not taking them elsewhere. They they aren't, they aren't imprisoned by this job and the pension, all these things that I've heard that literally said like I can't do anything else beyond this job and it's great that there's other resources that talk about this and platforms and such. But it's that notion, but at the same time, it's recognizing that, yeah, I am more than a cop, because it goes back to prior conversations we had too.
Speaker 1:I think about that a lot. I think about that backup career. I think about that a lot. I think about that, that backup career. I think about their resume, of not just being in law enforcement, because there were some critical points in my career that I was like, huh, I may not be able to make it to the life 50. So I was like, huh, what am I going to do? Hence, you know, doctorates and this and that, and thinking about education and other aspects where, if I couldn't do this job anymore, that there would be a backup.
Speaker 1:But when you have a backup, one thing you're going to find out too is it alleviates a ton of stress. A ton of stress Cause some people may be in their career and they're like I don't know if I want to do this for 30 years, but if you have an out and it could be even in the same career field, I don't think people have problems that you may not necessarily want to stay on the road the rest of your career, but maybe there's something in another agency or even going fed or doing something else that that's kind of comparable to what you're doing, but it's not necessarily what you're doing right now, but it's something that's going to get you to pay the bills you know, in reality, it's going to help you pay the bills, in case something happened.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and even going back to your notion that you've put out in the article, I think that that kind of thinking is responsible for agencies to recognize.
Speaker 2:Right, we have a generation, starting with mine you know the borderline millennial that I am but generations that are going to, they have already proven that they're going to change careers more often, and so how do we just cross our arms and be mad about talking about it or just well, if they don't want to be here, then they don't have to be here.
Speaker 2:It's like, okay, then you're going to continue to have an absolute recruit recruiting retention issue, or you can be aware of it and you build the right culture and framework and development opportunities and maybe you can keep a ton of those people more than the agencies next door. However, don't be caught with your, you know, don't be caught with your pants down if people leave quick, more quickly than you're ready for. But then there's also ways to game it, like maybe you have more rotating positions, keep people developing, keep them interested and also, I mean I mean truly, we're seeing it across the country, but more people are advancing quicker because there is a you know, there's a talent shortage. Right, there's an experiential shortage because people left mid career.
Speaker 1:Yeah, here it is Embracing a military style model of service and commitment in police recruitment. So it's like you know what listen, it doesn't even have to be like anything crazy. You sign up for three or four years, but you signed up for it, you have to give back your bonus or whatever. And then you know, if you do the four years, then you may be eligible for something like reduced rates. It's nothing crazy, nothing big.
Speaker 1:But the recruitment model that's the last thing I want to talk about today is recruiting. Like obviously the shift is going to be a little bit different now with, like, the political atmosphere, but in general, trying to get people to take their foot, like me, it was different, probably the same thing when you were a kid. Like it was a call to service. You always wanted to be an LEO, stuff like that. Now it's like huh, not a lot of people are really they're more focused on yeah, I do want to serve and there's a lot of that comes with it. But the problem is there's a lot that comes with it that means like there's a lot of a lot of pushback from the public yeah, it's better.
Speaker 2:So, if you talk to me, you know I kind of said a little bit about it. But when I took over hiring, I literally thought, like I mean a lot. I left a small unit that I'd wanted to be in it for a long time and I just got in there and I'm leaving this, you know, on my own volition to go to recruiting and if recruiting absolutely fails and I'm back to the street and I didn't get to work, that you know that unit that I wanted to do, and so a little bit was do or die. But I also thought that it was going to be, it was going to be near impossible, but we're going to do our best and go down swinging.
Speaker 2:Uh, what I found even in 2021, after you know a little bit of you know the dust was starting to settle 21 and 22 is there were people that grew up wanting to do this job and they came back out of the woodwork and when you take the time to sit down with them and actually engage and show them, tell them about how you've experienced things and what they do have opportunities for, not like a, not like a salesperson, but a little bit, it's just opening up and building a relation and people are coming in. We had unprecedented success in our area, beyond everyone else, where I literally was accused of like cheating or something by a local agency. Like captain, like she invited me in to talk to her team, which I did like gladly because we were doing a lot, we're doing really well and she's like there's just no way you're getting the numbers. I'm like I'm sorry you invited me here to accuse me of something. Anyway, going back to it like people wanted to do it.
Speaker 2:But I even have examples of like a recruit that said that actually he came up as an explorer at the agency next door but it wouldn't have back to his mentor. His mentor said, hey, man, don't do this job, don't like you, do not want to do this job. And how devastating. But he came next door and got hired with us, right, so it's, it's just the thing people got to try.
Speaker 2:And there's a lot of simple things that people do with agencies can do, but a lot of them still aren't doing it right. They're not engaging, they're not leaning into social media, they're not getting on a podcast to reach people where they're at, because a lot of the younger folks might be on social media, they might be listening to podcasts to try to learn about careers and learn how they can get their foot in the door and learn what the opportunities are. So it's just again, try, like you got to try. It's gotten a lot better, uh, but again, you know, kind of to your point. Um, we aren't, as an industry, we aren't doing ourselves any favors when we're lowering standards. And I don't want to put words in your mouth, I don't mean to your point, but what we were talking about going on to the next thing.
Speaker 1:That's like, believe me, yeah, like can't lower the standards.
Speaker 2:No, no it's happening, though, and we're just kicking the can, and that can is full of festering food that's just going to get worse and worse, to everyone's detriment the public safety largely. So. If we're removing fiscal standards, we're removing hiring standards. We can't settle and we all know what happens when we settle in a relationship or in business or an agency. Now, those that is our culture. That's going to take tenfold to undo or or right that ship. So, um, yeah, I mean I hit on a lot of things, but these are big conversations when we talk about the industry, recruiting and hiring, but I think that you bring up a really good point, like we need to prepare and put more resources towards those things.
Speaker 1:I think there's going to be a positive future. I do. I think there's going to be a positive future. I think you're going to find a lot more younger people and even mid-career. I thought you know what? One of my buddies is a retired special agent, 50 something years old and he's a deputy sheriff. Now You're going to have such a different career field of people jumping into this profession because they're finding out that a lot of people are like I've always wanted to try it. I've always wanted to do it. I'm just going to do it and now it's time to do it. So I think it's going to be a positive uptake in it. But I think you're also going to have people who are like you know what I did? It Cool.
Speaker 2:You're also gonna have people are like you know what I did it cool, I'm gonna move on, that's okay and I love that, that's fine military. I've said the same thing. I was like why are we, uh, and it's, it's a good thing with the military, like, hey, thank you for your service? Most people understand and we, we recognize the majority of people are not going to be lifers when they go in the military. It's very normal to do four, you know, maybe six, whatever right, and move on to other things. Like that's an understood thing societally. So why are we not like, hey, you've been, you've been a police officer for five years, thank you for your service. No, but meanwhile we're like, ooh, five years.
Speaker 1:I know some cars.
Speaker 2:What happened? What happened to you? What'd you do? But that's not fair, right, we do it to ourselves. And uh, man, there's something else I want to say, and it's just around the tip of my brain, something you said that that kicked up. This thought um, it's gonna come back to me.
Speaker 1:Well, you know, I think I you know I was checking your website. What we're doing is bluegritwellnesscom and you do keep it up to date and you do have the blog posts on there. I'd like that's one thing I really wanted to have you on today for people is, I wanted to point to you especially your social media and especially what you have going on, because it's not just hiring, it's leadership and it's about a career and you know there's so much listen. Fed world and police world are alike in a way, but they're so different in a way.
Speaker 1:And that's why I really wanted to have you on and talk about that.
Speaker 2:Thank you man. No, thank you so much, and that thought might come back to me like 10 minutes later when we're off the call. But no, thank you, I really appreciate coming on. It's been great to connect. I mean, we could nerd out for hours and hours and I need just continuous conversation back on my show because you've been on my show as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, people just have to realize that we're probably going to be on a speaking circuit eventually, just talking about things You're manifesting, that, yeah, it's going to happen into existence.
Speaker 1:We're going to speak, we're going to be out there speaking and it's about critical decision-making. And it's about decision-making and it's not just for police, it's for the protector communities, for the corporate world, everybody. There are so many like fly by night people that just they come up with some some guru, new technique or something. But no, this is just real. Make a damn decision or make a decision, damn it, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Yeah, get up, you don't go on a walk around your block. That is a decision and you would be better for it, and you know it right, you know it, and so and mcraven the interview, like study their questions.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, brother, you said that get up and go on a walk. Decision mcraven's this, his famous speech, where he says get up in the morning, make your bed, make, make a decision, brother yeah, well, I appreciate you coming on, man everybody check out eric tongue blue grit wellness brother.
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